The end of The United States of America as we know it?

[LOC]

Okay, I know this is going to be a controversial topic, so I just ask up front that everyone keep their wits about them and try to stay civil.  Keep in mind that this is my opinion based upon historical fact.  I am drawing conclusions based upon correlations between other civilizations throughout history.

There have been many great empires throughout history.  All have a beginning and all have an end, a commonality they all share. 

For now, I'll focus on the Roman Empire and it's correlation to the United States because that is probably the most familiar to everyone.
                   
                                                                                  Roman Empire:                   Unites States: 
Republic Established:                                                    509 B.C.                             1776
A series of wars/skirmishes to flex military superiority:    5th-1st Centuries B.C.         Ongoing
Civil War:                                                                     91-88 B.C. & 44 B.C.           1861-1865
Republic ends, Empire formed:                                       27 B.C.                              Some might argue we are in this stage now
Empire Splits:                                                               285                                   Forthcoming?
End of Empire:                                                              476                                   

This a quick and dirty comparison, but I think it gets my idea across.  There is one significant difference between us and other great civilizations throughout history and that is the level of technology at use, specifically with information exchange.  That is why our timeline is significantly accelerated in my opinion. 

Reference:
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/what-are-the-greatest-empires-in-history.html
http://timerime.com/en/timeline/422520/Rise+and+Fall+of+Roman+Empire/
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/republicanromanbattles/tp/080307EarlyRepublicanWars.htm

[Thernlund]

There are far more differences between the Roman Empire and the United States of America than there are similarities.  So much so that I don't think a wide-sweeping comparison is even possible.  Even small specifically-directed comparisons are difficult.

The biggest difference that makes such a comparison invalid is the stark difference in culture and general mindset of the respective societies.



Fact is, every year that goes by is the end of the United States as we know it.  That's been true since the beginning, and is certainly by design.

The question really is... how are we changing?  As decades pass, sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse.


-T.

[LOC]

There are far more differences between the Roman Empire and the United States of America than there are similarities.  So much so that I don't think a wide-sweeping comparison is even possible.  Even small specifically-directed comparisons are difficult.

The biggest difference that makes such a comparison invalid is the stark difference in culture and general mindset of the respective societies.



Fact is, every year that goes by is the end of the United States as we know it.  That's been true since the beginning, and is certainly by design.

The question really is... how are we changing?  As decades pass, sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse.


-T.

That argument can be made for every civilization or society that is now just a page in a history book. They ALL thought they were the best that had ever been. What makes the United States so much more special special? 

[LOC]

That argument can be made for every civilization or society that is now just a page in a history book. They ALL thought they were the best that had ever been. What makes the United States so much more special?

Sorry about the double post. Sitting here on the train tapping on my phone...

While there may be many differences between our societies, corruption, apathy and hubris were instrumental in their downfall and I see those qualities running rampant in our society right now.

[SirJesster]

i think our society changed forever after world war 2... we have had it so well that i think we have substituted entertainment for living. entertainment is our sole focus now. reality tv, sports, internet, all of that. you don't really see too many people thinking about hard work and life, then politics. now it's more like watch a trendy tv program and then vote for the most trendy presidential candidate while parroting the 30 seconds of news they saw that week. what kind of underwear does bill clinton wear? really?

we have no stomach for real life and real death. we live for hollywood now. and yes, i do think that abandonment has caused irreparable harm to the united states for the last three generations. and the republicans and democrats both have zero desire to save us from financial collapse.

i think, due to the size and strength of our economy, we are and will show surprising resiliance. but it can't last forever. i actually do think we will collapse. i have no idea when or to what extent. the soviet union's collapse actually seemed mild, and they seem to be slowly recovering. ours might be deeper. russia's enemies (us, hehe) at least showed restraint for their collapse. i suppose our enemies might gauge our collapse first.

might want to think about learning russian and mandarin, hehe...

ps. i say this with both seriousness and hopefulness in my heart. i hope we end up ok, it just looks really bad right now. the term "fiscal cliff" is thrown around like it's political rhetoric, but it really is a big deal.

[coelacanth]

I think I'm in agreement with T on this one.  Any comparison of empires across the centuries is pretty meaningless in today's context.  Even comparing the British empire to the Romans is tenuous at best.   Perhaps the only constant is human nature and the wreckage it has caused across the millenia. 

[LOC]

I think I'm in agreement with T on this one.  Any comparison of empires across the centuries is pretty meaningless in today's context.  Even comparing the British empire to the Romans is tenuous at best.   Perhaps the only constant is human nature and the wreckage it has caused across the millenia.

How is any comparison meaningless?  By thinking that we are different, better or somehow impervious to the same factors that brought about the downfall of the Romans, Macedonians, British Empire, Portuguese, Brazilians, Aztecs, Ottomans, and any number of Chinese Dynasties, etc. we are setting ourselves up for the same fate.  Does anyone really believe that all of these cultures were the same?  Yet history has shown that they suffered similar fates. 

Those who refuse to learn history are condemned to repeat it.

[Thernlund]

Nobody said we were any better or worse.  Our days are numbered certainly.  That's just a fact of life.

And certainly we should learn from history.  You are right... those who do not learn from history repeat it.

But the Roman Empire we are not.  For every similarity you can demonstrate, I can demonstrate two differences.  They thought differently, they had different politics, they held different values, they had a very much different society.

There are surely lessons to be learned, but trying to predict our future based on theirs is not a productive endeavor I think.


-T.


EDIT:  I'll also add that comparing the Roman Empire (or any other past great empires) to the U.S. is an extremely disproportionate comparison.  A very much more apt comparison would be to compare past great empires to the GLOBAL society of today, of which the U.S. is but a part.

Again, the Roman Empire we are not.

[RugerDave]

What history has taught us is that once power bottle necks onto one man, it becomes chaos in the end. My thought is the Founding Fathers knew this fact and created the democracy we have now, the rights we have now, the Constitution we have now. They were ordinary land owning men with really not much ties to "Royalty". They were the Joe's of the age and wanted the best for the schmoes. A lot of other societies structured for the rise of a family or monarchy, concentrated power, people suffered and a lot more wars for power control. But in democracies people thrived more and the the populous had their voice in changes and decisions for the better of the land. When power is thrown onto a small group or one man, eventually someone's head gets big and people die. Look at the King of Egypt, when one died and another came to power a lot of old ties and bonds were broken due to the new King not knowing these deals and feeling they have no obligation to comply with the old structured ways. The historically proven story of Joseph is proof as to how new King's come to power and a lot of people go hungry.

[LOC]

What history has taught us is that once power bottle necks onto one man, it becomes chaos in the end. My thought is the Founding Fathers knew this fact and created the democracy we have now, the rights we have now, the Constitution we have now. They were ordinary land owning men with really not much ties to "Royalty". They were the Joe's of the age and wanted the best for the schmoes. A lot of other societies structured for the rise of a family or monarchy, concentrated power, people suffered and a lot more wars for power control. But in democracies people thrived more and the the populous had their voice in changes and decisions for the better of the land. When power is thrown onto a small group or one man, eventually someone's head gets big and people die. Look at the King of Egypt, when one died and another came to power a lot of old ties and bonds were broken due to the new King not knowing these deals and feeling they have no obligation to comply with the old structured ways. The historically proven story of Joseph is proof as to how new King's come to power and a lot of people go hungry.

Good point. Once an elected representative begins performing that duty as an occupation rather than as a public service then that individual will no longer have the public's best interests at heart but rather their own. I think that's what the founding fathers were trying to avoid.

[Dough333]

This is always an interesting discussion.

I think we are fine for some time.  This new age of a global economy changes the rules vastly.  Generally, most of the planet has a vested interest in our continued success.  What we do have going for us is that we still carry the biggest stick.  I think that goes a long ways in staying relevant.  I believe our country is due for a major face lift in the next 50 years or so but I don't see an abrupt total failure anytime in the future.

Now with that being said, no civilization ever had to contend with WMD's.  A nuclear attack of any sorts (emp included) would throw most everything out the window.  I still think that our combination of military, natural resources and patriotism would still prevail. 

I'm always the optimist

[Wingman709]

I am going to throw out another thought on this.  I personally feel that this Country is going down the tubes but for the reason that we have removed God from our society. 

We kick God and prayer out of our schools and then ask how could God let something like Sandy Hook happen?  Well, we kicked him out.

I feel that we need to stop crushing the rights of Christians (the basis of our founding fathers and this country) and allow God back into our hearts, minds, and Society. 

If you read scripture, great nations often fell when they took God out of everything and felt they could do things on their own.  That is what the US is doing. 

Yes I feel we are on a bad path and if we don't learn from history (scripture) we will see the same results.

[Dough333]

Taking God out of the equation of our every day lives and especially strengthening the separation of state and church is one of the positive steps this country  is taking.  We are a country based on freedom so allowing people the freedom to come to their own conclusions on the idea of god is a positive thing.

 

[Wingman709]

This country was founded for a couple reasons and one main reason was the freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.  The US today in no way represents what the founding fathers envisioned. 

Freedom must be for everyone, not just the atheists.  If people do not like living in a religious country, they have the FREEDOM to live elsewhere.  They do not have the freedom to remove God from this country.

[Paul]

I'll say two things and leave it at that, if I wanted to live in a theocracy I would not have returned from the middle east and freedom of religion includes abstinence from religion.

I'm not a religious zealot so I can accept the inclusion of religious abstinence as part of freedom of religion.

If you cannot accept that people have differing beliefs and values then you are no different than those that think they know what is best for you.

[altsehastiin]

This country was founded for a couple reasons and one main reason was the freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

Well, in fact this country was founded by people looking for freedom FROM state religion, i.e., the Anglican church.  That said, I think much of what the ACLU spends its time fighting (crosses and public land, etc.) under the first amendment is a waste of time and resources.  The government can acknowledge and accomodate religion without establishing one, which is what the 1st amendment prohibits.  Then again, those of us who take a pretty absolutist position with respect to the 2nd amendment probably shouldn't be trying to parse the language of the first amendment to defend entanglement between government and religion.

Now, what I will say on the original topic is that the United States has always been a country populated by people of faith.  Our greatest social causes (abolition, the civil rights movement, even prohibition) have been religious movements lead by religious leaders.  I do think that part of America's decline (which I acknowledge) is tied to our loss of faith and the general coarsening of our culture.  People don't have  a sense anymore that they are living for goals above and beyond themselves.  There's a sense that anything goes, that morality is plastic or non-existent, and that if you can get away with it, you should do it.

[Thernlund]

Let's tread lightly on the religious topic folks.  I don't want theists and atheists going to war here, which inevitably happens if left unchecked.


-T.

[Gaston34]

I will say (I'm treading lightly) that I always found it odd that because we no longer allow teachers, who are State employees, to lead the classroom in Christian prayer, some believe we have kicked God out of schools.  I always believed that God is in your heart....not within particular locations, or buildings.

[Black_water]

I will just add my two cents here.

The Romans and even Mesopotamia had global economies of sorts.  Sure, not as fast as ours but as big for them as ours is for us.

I want to remove God from morality here.  The problem with this country is that we got away from being close knit, knowing our neighbors and sharing a common thread.  Now everyone does for themselves and neighbors/neighborhood be damned.  God of course is some good glue, but common decency will go a long way too.  We have neither.

Society follows an arc.  There are very appropriate one that pops up every now and then, I am sure you can find it on the internet.  We are clearly in decline.  The founding principles are no longer there and we have moved over to a demand side economy.  No society has ever lasted very long with that model in place.  I think we will probably go a bit more toward tyranny and at some point that will break and we will have some civil wars and whatever comes of that.

Clearly, just even on a financial level, this country cannot survive for much longer with the status quo.

[Son of Jared]

Wow, some awesome conversation here.    I think it is a credit to the forum that we can conduct ourselves in an orderly manner. The short answer to the original question is Yes. Our country is changing, and in a short enough time period, will cease to exist as we know it. What will it become? It will become, I believe, part of the New World Order. Remember Bush senior speaking on this very topic? The world is headed for a world governance and a one world religion. (All my opinion, and research of course)

As far as the God question? I follow Jesus. It really doesn't matter much to me that government doesn't. Would our country be better off if we carried over Godly principles to our lives, schools and work places? I think the answer is a resounding yes. Maybe the bigger question is what do we replace it with? You are kidding yourselves if you think there isn't a vast population of Americans that aren't already replacing Godly principles with government principles. You see this is the whole point. Government is filling the void, or vacuum if you will, of Godly principles. Not only is this happening in America but it is happening all over the world.

This is a huge subject matter so it is hard to hit on everything without filling pages (or bits of data) of opinion. When it is all said and done it would seem that we as Americans (50% of us) are up against the battle of a lifetime. We need to also remember that the other half think we are headed on the correct course. Interesting isn't it? Isn't this really the issue? 50% of the country voted for more.

I would like to say one more thing. As a Christian, I can honestly say that I understand the frustration of the masses with religion. The church, or what has been represented as the church, has been an enigma throughout the centuries. Maybe more people would be apt to follow Jesus if the church actually followed him. It is a personal decision not a corporate one. Anyway, thanks guys for all the great comments and thank you Terry for some good guidance in the discussion.  This a great Republic, I hope we can preserve it.

[Son of Jared]

I will just add my two cents here.

The Romans and even Mesopotamia had global economies of sorts.  Sure, not as fast as ours but as big for them as ours is for us.

I want to remove God from morality here.  The problem with this country is that we got away from being close knit, knowing our neighbors and sharing a common thread.  Now everyone does for themselves and neighbors/neighborhood be damned.  God of course is some good glue, but common decency will go a long way too.  We have neither.

Society follows an arc.  There are very appropriate one that pops up every now and then, I am sure you can find it on the internet.  We are clearly in decline.  The founding principles are no longer there and we have moved over to a demand side economy.  No society has ever lasted very long with that model in place.  I think we will probably go a bit more toward tyranny and at some point that will break and we will have some civil wars and whatever comes of that.

Clearly, just even on a financial level, this country cannot survive for much longer with the status quo.

When don't you throw in your 2 cents?     I couldn't help it  actually I really like your posts.

You are talking quite a spread here but I personally believe you are right on both accounts. The Romans for sure had a global economy, at least as big as their globe was at the time. As far as Mesopotamia goes, you are talking about the fertile crescent. The Sumerians predate the Babylonians.  I suspect however that you are right. There is a a fascinating book by Joseph P Farrell called Babylons Banksters. It suggests that the banking system started with the Babylonians. They probably got it from the Sumerians but that is a whole other can of worms.

Remove God from morality? Really? Then who sets the standard? You? Me? Don't you see that this is the ultimate trap AND  the very same one that the government is using on you right now. Why is your morality any better than Barrack Husein Obama? Think about it.

[Gaston34]

I personally know many Christians who are decent, moral people.  With that being said, I do also know many agnostics and atheists that are also decent moral people.  I guess my point is that I don't believe goodness, and morality are exclusive to people of a particular belief system.  I believe morality is very much a result of the values someone is taught as a child, regardless of faith, or the absence of it.  Ok....that is my 2 cents as well.   

[RugerDave]

I personally know many Christians who are decent, moral people.  With that being said, I do also know many agnostics and atheists that are also decent moral people.  I guess my point is that I don't believe goodness, and morality are exclusive to people of a particular belief system.  I believe morality is very much a result of the values someone is taught as a child, regardless of faith, or the absence of it.  Ok....that is my 2 cents as well.   

+1 Being "Good" is a decision we make on a case by case basis. Even bad people do good things sometimes. It just depends on how you were taught to deal and handle both sides of the equation (good vs bad). Easy vs harder, do I work to make my wage for the week or steal from my neighbor and get high all day? To some people the latter the obvious, to me I was taught to work hard and be proud to take care of your family. Also it can be taught but some people just don't listen!

[Black_water]

When don't you throw in your 2 cents?     I couldn't help it  actually I really like your posts.

You are talking quite a spread here but I personally believe you are right on both accounts. The Romans for sure had a global economy, at least as big as their globe was at the time. As far as Mesopotamia goes, you are talking about the fertile crescent. The Sumerians predate the Babylonians.  I suspect however that you are right. There is a a fascinating book by Joseph P Farrell called Babylons Banksters. It suggests that the banking system started with the Babylonians. They probably got it from the Sumerians but that is a whole other can of worms.

Remove God from morality? Really? Then who sets the standard? You? Me? Don't you see that this is the ultimate trap AND  the very same one that the government is using on you right now. Why is your morality any better than Barrack Husein Obama? Think about it.

You and I share the same feelings about this.  I am a very huge fan of C.S. Lewis and he did a great job of defining the point that you are making above, which I agree with.

The issue is that most people, especially these days don't understand, it is sort of like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

So, when I make that appeal, I simply state community.  We don't have the same sense of community anymore, and we need to reclaim that.  If we do, we will probably reclaim God as well.

There is a book out there called "The Collapse of Globalism", can't remember the author but he makes some very good points.  The EU is collapsing.  Whether people like it or not, countries are strongly Nationalist, hence part of the reason for the collapse.  Look at the way the countries in the EU do business, they put their nations first EU second etc.

The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe there will be an NWO, at least not for very long.  Then I think things will collapse and we will go back to Nationalism.  I think we will start getting our stuff locally again and things will be "reversed" a bit and then the process will start all over.

This has all happened before and it will happen again.

[gilacr]

I will add in one of my favorite quotes, at least after this last election, as to the condition of our country as I see it: "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." Benjamin Franklin