AR Lowers - Pistol vs. Rifle (SPLIT: ***AR15 Stripped Lower SALE****)

[Arizonagunsmith]

Doc, l am interested. Can we get these registered as pistols lowers?
Who in Glendale/ W. Phoenix will do the paperwork on these?

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]

[Dark Sky Solutions]

Doc, l am interested. Can we get these registered as pistols lowers?
Who in Glendale/ W. Phoenix will do the paperwork on these?

Not sure about how to register them as pistols. Pretty sure there are AR specific regs concerning stripped lowers. If someone else knows more please chime in. Otherwise I will doing some more research tonight.

There are a couple more FFLs on the forum who might do the transfers down in your neck of the woods. Then again you could always make a trip to cooler weather and come pick it up, lol

[870policemag]

It depends on how the original MFG registered it. I'm not sure but I think that the BATF separates the two by ''frames" and ''receivers''.

[Arizonagunsmith]

I am wanting to use the pistol lower as a precursor to SBR'ing a 12" 300 AAC Blackout. Would prefer the frame would read multi-cal but that's a minor issue. Funny as l bought some Remington 870 (12 gauge receivers only) and built them into 7" SBS with a AOW registration of $5.00 vs $200. Too bad this isnt that simple. On those the rule stated that if they hadnt been built into long guns they were capable of being AOW's.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

I am wanting to use the pistol lower as a precursor to SBR'ing a 12" 300 AAC Blackout. Would prefer the frame would read multi-cal but that's a minor issue. Funny as l bought some Remington 870 (12 gauge receivers only) and built them into 7" SBS with a AOW registration of $5.00 vs $200. Too bad this isnt that simple. On those the rule stated that if they hadnt been built into long guns they were capable of being AOW's.

That is actually a great reason to just build a 80% receiver into a firearm. I did this with a number of 80s. A lot of people want to build it up for the lack of paperwork but I like the fact you can build a pistol up as you wish then can do a SBR on it if you decide.

Btw, I have 80% available also, lmao

[Cyris]

I thought that it didn't really matter, they are not marked any specific way. When filling out the 4473, it just has "other" on it. Thats how ASA did it when I bought lowers from them (aero lowers), so my understanding is they can be built as pistol or rifle.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

I thought that it didn't really matter, they are not marked any specific way. When filling out the 4473, it just has "other" on it. Thats how ASA did it when I bought lowers from them (aero lowers), so my understanding is they can be built as pistol or rifle.

From my understanding it is how the manufacture tells the ATF when they manufacture them. If they fill out the form with the serial numbers and say they are "receivers" then it is suppose to stay a receiver for a rifle. If they fill out "frame" then it can be built into a pistol then into a rifle if the owner wishes. The issue is there is ATF laws about a rifle being converted to a pistol.

[870policemag]

Nailed it

[Cyris]

Yeah, I am pretty sure this has been hashed out hundreds of times on other forums. Its not a rifle until its had a stock on it. Most common, people will build their lower into a pistol while waiting for their form 1, then add the stock. That way, you know it works properly and can work out kinks (and also shoot your toy while waiting).

I've researched it quite a bit and I am comfortable with the explanations I've found, but I am no lawyer. I would recommend reading the 4473 comments (it does address "receivers" to some extent from what I can see) and so does the ATF web site.

It is kind of a hijack of this thread, but I would like to see more discussion of this. You know it will drive search results to this forum =)

[Dark Sky Solutions]

Yeah, I am pretty sure this has been hashed out hundreds of times on other forums. Its not a rifle until its had a stock on it. Most common, people will build their lower into a pistol while waiting for their form 1, then add the stock. That way, you know it works properly and can work out kinks (and also shoot your toy while waiting).

I've researched it quite a bit and I am comfortable with the explanations I've found, but I am no lawyer. I would recommend reading the 4473 comments (it does address "receivers" to some extent from what I can see) and so does the ATF web site.

It is kind of a hijack of this thread, but I would like to see more discussion of this. You know it will drive search results to this forum =)

When I get back to the house I will post up a new topic about this with some references and move some of these comments over to it. Thanks for your input.

[870policemag]

I see. From what I found you have to start with a fresh receiver that hasn't been used on a rifle before. So that means that I can't build my AR rifle into a pistol but I can build my pistol into a rifle. I'd have to buy a pistol already made or build one from scratch.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

I see. From what I found you have to start with a fresh receiver that hasn't been used on a rifle before. So that means that I can't build my AR rifle into a pistol but I can build my pistol into a rifle. I'd have to buy a pistol already made or build one from scratch.

Yes in short. Or of course build up an 80%.

[Arizonagunsmith]

I see. From what I found you have to start with a fresh receiver that hasn't been used on a rifle before. So that means that I can't build my AR rifle into a pistol but I can build my pistol into a rifle. I'd have to buy a pistol already made or build one from scratch.

That is what has always been my understanding. I have asked different ATF agents about this and they all say the same thing, once a rifle always a rifle... if its a pistol you can make it into a rifle and all rules stand. 16" barrel and 26" over all length.

[Cyris]

That is what has always been my understanding. I have asked different ATF agents about this and they all say the same thing, once a rifle always a rifle... if its a pistol you can make it into a rifle and all rules stand. 16" barrel and 26" over all length.

Yeah, thats what I was trying to say in an earlier post. If you have a virgin stripped lower thats never been anything, just a receiver (regardless of manufacturer) you can build it into a pistol. Fill out your form 1, get it engraved and once you get your stamp just slap on a stock and its now a rifle. That is my intention with one of the lowers I have right now.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

That is what has always been my understanding. I have asked different ATF agents about this and they all say the same thing, once a rifle always a rifle... if its a pistol you can make it into a rifle and all rules stand. 16" barrel and 26" over all length.

Exactly what I have been told by numerous ATF agents as well. While I was stuck in Kalifornistan very few manufacturers would actually manufacture"Pistol" lowers that where aloud into CA. So that's really where the 80% thing came in more and more. Plus if you are actually doing the 80% at home and not paying for a "Build party" it usually can come out cheaper than trying to buy a pistol lower(If you are doing a standard cal)

[Dark Sky Solutions]

Yeah, thats what I was trying to say in an earlier post. If you have a virgin stripped lower thats never been anything, just a receiver (regardless of manufacturer) you can build it into a pistol. Fill out your form 1, get it engraved and once you get your stamp just slap on a stock and its now a rifle. That is my intention with one of the lowers I have right now.

The tricky part their is how the manufacturer "registered" it after manufacturing it. In all honest is anyone going to go that far back? Probably not, but I am not a lawyer and thats what the regs say. I'll find them again when I get a chance.

[ShootersElement]

In case someone wants to do some real in depth reading...here's the ATF ruling on this.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

It must be a virgin receiver, and never called in as a rifle in order for it to be built as a pistol (legally).

Doc's a good guy for trying to keep us straight on this one.

[Cyris]

In case someone wants to do some real in depth reading...here's the ATF ruling on this.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

It must be a virgin receiver, and never called in as a rifle in order for it to be built as a pistol (legally).

Doc's a good guy for trying to keep us straight on this one.

Agreed! Also, still a great deal on these stripped lowers =)

[Dark Sky Solutions]

In case someone wants to do some real in depth reading...here's the ATF ruling on this.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

It must be a virgin receiver, and never called in as a rifle in order for it to be built as a pistol (legally).

Doc's a good guy for trying to keep us straight on this one.

Thank you for that. Those are what I was referring to. Lengthy read but being stuck in KA while I was stationed there I learned how to "live within the confinements of the law", lol. 

[Thernlund]

Split topic from --> https://arizonagunowners.com/index.php/topic,6898.0.html

Carry on.


-T.

[JesseL]

From my understanding it is how the manufacture tells the ATF when they manufacture them. If they fill out the form with the serial numbers and say they are "receivers" then it is suppose to stay a receiver for a rifle. If they fill out "frame" then it can be built into a pistol then into a rifle if the owner wishes. The issue is there is ATF laws about a rifle being converted to a pistol.

AFAIK (and I'm licensed as a manufacturer) there's no document for a manufacturer to fill that goes to the ATF with the serial numbers of all the guns they make (except for NFA firearms). The newly manufactured guns go in a bound book specifically for that and they stay in the manufacturers records as long as they're in business.

The manufacturer reports each year how many guns of what types and calibers they've produced, but it's only the totals, not individual serial numbers.

When bare receivers get transferred between FFLs or to the end customer, they're logged in the books and 4473 as receivers.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

AFAIK (and I'm licensed as a manufacturer) there's no document for a manufacturer to fill that goes to the ATF with the serial numbers of all the guns they make (except for NFA firearms). The newly manufactured guns go in a bound book specifically for that and they stay in the manufacturers records as long as they're in business.

The manufacturer reports each year how many guns of what types and calibers they've produced, but it's only the totals, not individual serial numbers.

When bare receivers get transferred between FFLs or to the end customer, they're logged in the books and 4473 as receivers.

Not sure. That is what I was under the assumption of after reading for hours and hours before my ATF interview. During the interview though my ATF agent said something about listing firearms on certain forms after I had manufactured them and I needed to fax them in within 48 hours. Sounded odd to me.

[JesseL]

Not sure. That is what I was under the assumption of after reading for hours and hours before my ATF interview. During the interview though my ATF agent said something about listing firearms on certain forms after I had manufactured them and I needed to fax them in within 48 hours. Sounded odd to me.

You have to report lost or stolen firearms with 48 hours, and newly manufactured NFA firearms have to have a form 2(?) filed within 48 hours.

Newly manufactured title 1 firearms just need to go into your bound book within 7 days.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

Licensed Firearms Manufacturers
If you hold a Type 07 FFL, you are required to keep your
acquisition and disposition records in accordance with
the regulatory requirements of 27
CFR 478.123(a), (b)
and (d).
Time Requirements for Recording Acquisition
and Disposition Information in Manufacturer
Records
The required acquisition information for each firearm
manufactured or otherwise acquired and the date of such
manufacture or acquisition shall be recorded not later
than the seventh day following such manufacture or other
acquisition. Firearms for which acquisition information
must be recorded include both completed weapons that
will or may readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive and frames or receivers
that may be sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of
separately. The sale or other disposition shall be recorded
not later than the seventh day following the transaction.
Note:
Acquisition records of manufacturers and
importers must be retained as a permanent record.

[Dark Sky Solutions]

You have to report lost or stolen firearms with 48 hours, and newly manufactured NFA firearms have to have a form 2(?) filed within 48 hours.

Newly manufactured title 1 firearms just need to go into your bound book within 7 days.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

Now that makes a ton more sense. I didn't want to argue with her during my interview and I haven't had time lately to look it all up for clarification. Thanks tons Jesse.

[JesseL]

 

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]