The Customer I Wish I Never Had

[Harm]

Good God this is an article that's hard to read. 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/08/firearmconcierge/customers-wish-never/

They say that the customer is always right. I disagree. I won’t go so far as to say the customer is always wrong but let’s face it – not everyone is right one hundred percent of the time. I personally strive to achieve the highest rates of perfection. Sometimes there are customers who give us joy when they enter and then there are those who give us joy when they leave. Here’s one I wish had never walked in my door . . .

My career in the firearm industry is fairly well documented. Here on TTAG I discuss the ups and I discuss the downs, but this week I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for the industry that I’m a part of. After very careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the firearm regulatory system sucks.

For those of you who do not know me, I play kickball three times a week. There’s a park near FC headquarters and after a long day of pushing paper and dealing with the illogical and the illegal, I take my frustrations out by smacking the snot out of a ball being thrown in my general direction. I have been playing for about three years and there are a bunch of amazing people in the group. Some old, some young. A few of the younger professionals like me have a blast three times a week.

That’s where I met my friend Ronald. He worked for a local Fortune 100 company in their corporate office. As one of the smartest guys I have ever had the pleasure of meeting, it was no surprise to me to find out he has degrees in mechanical and electrical engineering. After he accomplished those, he went to law school to specialize in intellectual property. One day he apparently got bored and got an MBA for the hell of it. More degrees than a thermometer was my go-to zinger when the topic of higher education came up in conversation. Every Fortune 100 company wanted him and he landed a corner office half a mile down the road from where I hung out my shingle.

Last week he came in and asked me about a suitable firearm for his mom since she didn’t live in a great area and we got to talking about his time flying for the USAF. He also said he wanted to get back into recreational pistol shooting so I showed him a few guns. He fell in love with a GLOCK 19, a perennial favorite. As we did the paperwork he asked me about suitable defensive and range ammo and how to get a carry license. I gave him a packet with instructions on how to apply and to enclose his DD214 as his approval number came back.

Ronald walked out my door happy about re-entering the world of pistol ownership. I was happy for him as my friendship with him was based on a mutual respect, admiration of his intelligence and his welcoming nature. He was the kind of guy who would invite everyone to his house after playing ball for BBQ and beer and last year he even threw a birthday bash for me where we all got sloshed.

Yet someone I call a friend and confidant is now a customer I wish I never had. It turns out he is literally the most selfish and self centered jerk I have ever met. For a guy who didn’t play the game, he had an amazing poker face. Did his check bounce? No. Did he make a chargeback on his credit card? No. Instead, he gave me the “f@ck you” that has no equal.

This week I went to play ball and when I arrived, I could immediately tell that something was way off. Everyone looked up at me and asked if I’d heard the news. I looked confused as someone put their hand on my shoulder.

“FC, Ron killed himself last night.”

...

It continues at the link.  Damn. 

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]

[Thernlund]

The rest of that article at the link is like a gut punch.  Jesus.


-T.

[Harm]

Oy seriously.  Hard to read.

[Arizonagunsmith]

A case of damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Its a gut wrencher for everyone including the person who sold them the gun and/or ammo.

Jon

[AlmightySheep]

That is absolutely horrifying and it makes me feel awful that sometimes there isn't anything you can do about things like this.

[ItWasntMe]

Terrible story.

[brandyspaw]

I can empathize with the author for the loss of his friend as I've had a friend/coworker who took her own life. However, I’m sure I'm not comfortable having the government deciding who can and can't buy a gun just because they might hurt themselves. We all prefer to live in a society that has freedoms.  With those freedoms come responsibilities and inherent dangers.

The government (and certainly not this current one) can't be trusted with more power to decide who can be a gun owner and who can't. Certainly things could be changed to help the back ground check system better identify those with mental issues. I just hate to think how the system could be abused by those in power.

[Thernlund]

^^ I agree.  I don't want the gov't involved in making determinations.

If we're going to do something about keeping guns from the mentally ill, it'll need to start with doctors I think.  I decent might be that a given doctor must make a determination based on an LE referral, and that determination must be backed up by a second opinion within a certain time frame.  Then there needs to be a fair appeal and resolution process, as "mentally ill" is not always a permanent condition.

That's hardly an ideal system, and certainly has holes, but it's the best I can think of for now.  Smarter people that I would have to develop a checks and balances system that would reasonably protect 2A rights while also reasonably preventing the mentally ill from getting firearms.

Whatever the case, as demonstrated in the article, gun counter salesman making a judgement call in the moment just won't work.   


-T.

[RetroG]

And the author of that blog posting thought he knew this guy well, but he really didn't know enough about his mental state and recent history.  Scary.

[Wyatt Earp]

"My friend Ron is dead because of a series of systemic failures. The industry I have chosen failed him. My industry failed his family. My industry failed his friends. The cop taking the report about his threatened suicide, the one who took his gun away, failed all of us by not making that call. We had the textbook failure cascade. Our national background check system did nothing because no one told it anything."

Your friend Ron is dead because he decided on a very permanent solution to his problems.  Ron would have been dead whether you sold him the gun and ammo  or not.  Ron would have been dead because he wanted to kill himself and he would have found a way to do it, no matter what.  Blaming yourself or the system is stupid.  People who want to commit suicide have made the decision to do it and unless you can find a way to sit on someone 24/7 365 they're going to find the way to do it.  It sucks, but that is how it goes.

[Wyatt Earp]

^^ I agree.  I don't want the gov't involved in making determinations.

If we're going to do something about keeping guns from the mentally ill, it'll need to start with doctors I think.  I decent might be that a given doctor must make a determination based on an LE referral, and that determination must be backed up by a second opinion within a certain time frame.  Then there needs to be a fair appeal and resolution process, as "mentally ill" is not always a permanent condition.

And if you get a doctor that thinks owning guns is crazy, then what?  What if the cops in the area are against people having guns (DC, Chicago, etc)? 

[Thernlund]

Your friend Ron is dead because he decided on a very permanent solution to his problems.

I was going to say something like that, but I reconsidered the statement in the article beforehand.   I don't think he's saying that it's the system that is directly responsible for his friends death.  Surely the author blames his friend, as indicated here...

Yet someone I call a friend and confidant is now a customer I wish I never had. It turns out he is literally the most selfish and self centered jerk I have ever met. For a guy who didn’t play the game, he had an amazing poker face. Did his check bounce? No. Did he make a chargeback on his credit card? No. Instead, he gave me the “f@ck you” that has no equal.

And here...

Ron, if you’re out there: I’m mad as hell at you, but like a true friend I’ll get over it with time.

People with a mental illness are by the very nature of their illness incapable make the decisions necessary to save their own lives.  So within the context of the author's other commentary, I think his meaning in saying that the system let his friend down is that on some level, the checks and balances failed.

...

And if you get a doctor that thinks owning guns is crazy, then what?  What if the cops in the area are against people having guns (DC, Chicago, etc)? 

I already said it wasn't ideal.  But obviously what we do now doesn't work either, sooo... 


-T.

[Wyatt Earp]

That's the problem, though.  There is no real fix to the system.  As long as people have free will, they can decide to do things like suicide.  Or they will decide to drink too much soda, eat too many hamburgers or all of the other things we do to ourselves that aren't in our best interest.   

Of course, if Obama and his flunkies have their way, we'll all be safe from ourselves, all we have to do is turn everything over to them......

[Thernlund]

That's the problem, though.  There is no real fix to the system.  As long as people have free will, they can decide to do things like suicide.  Or they will decide to drink too much soda, eat too many hamburgers or all of the other things we do to ourselves that aren't in our best interest.   

Of course.  And I don't disagree.  I'm just saying that if we're going to address guns and the mentally ill, then something other than the current system is going to be required.

Or maybe it's just a case a few broken eggs being a fact of life.  My wife won't like that answer if I'm gunned down by some dude with schizophrenia chasing after the voices in his head, but I am willing to acknowledge that it might be the only acceptable answer.   


-T.

[Wyatt Earp]

Or maybe it's just a case a few broken eggs being a fact of life.  My wife won't like that answer if I'm gunned down by some dude with schizophrenia chasing after the voices in his head, but I am willing to acknowledge that it might be the only acceptable answer.   


-T.

It sucks, but I think it's the best answer.  Especially given the current political situation.  My wife wouldn't like it either but I think she would accept that over not having any freedom.

[TheCol.U.S.M.C.]

There is no way to stop someone from using a gun to end there life. Unless your going to take all guns away and I mean all police and military included.  Even if you did people will just use other methods jump off bridge car off cliff OD on drugs. It sucks no matter how it's down, but people will find a way. I remember of a Marine that shot himself in the head when he was on suicide watch in Kuwait in 2003 before the invasion of Iraq. The Marine had his weapon taken but he was able to steal a Doc's M9 and one round. After midnight he had the pistol hidden in his waistband and told his watch that he had to go pee so they walked out to the porta johns and he shot himself. The watch didn't fail him he was just really determined to die. Some times you just can't stop someone. It's still sad. I don't like reading about. I know friends that I think where close, I think I was getting close at one point too. Thank god I talked to them, and thank god they talked to me. Everybody needs help sometime.

[LuckyLeaky]

Edit..
Changed my mind about what I posted

You can delete this post

[TheCol.U.S.M.C.]

I won't if you do the same for me. Glad you made it threw the darker time.

[LuckyLeaky]

I won't if you do the same for me. Glad you made it threw the darker time.

Dammit...you caught it....
Thanks though. You too.

[coyotesfan97]

People who make the decision to commit suicide often appear happy just before the act. The weight is off their shoulders and they are committed. It sucks his buddy involved him in the whole sordid mess. But folks who commit suicide aren't considering the guilt their actions leave behind.

Ron was going to kill himself somehow.  He didn't ask for help or make a phone call.  He was the serious one who just does it. He would have found a way even if he'd been blocked from buying a gun.

[870policemag]

I wish this was the post I wish I never read. I've been on both sides of that situation. It fucking sucks. CF97 is right. You'd never see it coming when the person seems at peace. My brother bought me breakfast the day he passed. He was in a great mood. I've lost several customers this way. It's just the nature of the business. This happens at shooting ranges too. Sorry for cursing.

[K9ROCKY]

I won't say anything to disparage those who take their own lives and I have know a few.

But, I will say this, I have been to the very edge of despair and have seen the elephant, and
been in pain to the point of passing out. I have thought a time or two, I would never see the
sun rise and prayed to God to just make it through the night.

Here I am, married, 2 kids, 10 grandkids and God has let me live to be 68 years old. In all
my years, I have never thought about taking my life. God will determine the end of my life,
not me.

I have had a few friends who took their own life and believe me that's a permanent solution
to a short term problem. I feel sorry for the ones left behind as I feel it's a selfish act. No
matter what the family and friends do, they will feel it's part their fault.

   

[anm2_man]

That's the problem, though.  There is no real fix to the system.  As long as people have free will, they can decide to do things like suicide.  Or they will decide to drink too much soda, eat too many hamburgers or all of the other things we do to ourselves that aren't in our best interest.   

Of course, if Obama and his flunkies have their way, we'll all be safe from ourselves, all we have to do is turn everything over to them......

This ^^^^^^

If you are not allowed to make any sort of decision (Good or Bad), you are no longer free.   

 

[Feud]

Reminds me if an article I read a few weeks ago on suicides at ranges that rent guns. What a horrible thing for all involved.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/the-gun-rental-loophole-109687.html#.U_ZZF3PD_qA

[armoredman]

Ok, reality check. I worked at an indoor range where a customer rented a gun, bought ammo, went out on the line and killed himself. We kept the license, replaced the carpet, kept that Ruger SP101 on the rental line and went on with life. Why? WE DIDN'T KILL HIM. I had a friend who ran a gun shop on Ft Lowell in Tucson years ago who sold a .38 revolver to a man who went home and killed himself that night. He was upset, but he understood that he didn't do the act. Later I was in a different business and had a customer ask me about defensive firearms. i encouraged her to get raining, made some suggestions for firearms and ammunition for defensive use, and went on. Two weeks later she committed suicide with the gun and ammo I had recommended. Do I feel like I did anything wrong? Absolutely not - I DIDN'T KILL HER. She made that choice on her own to buy a firearm, buy ammunition, and misuse those tools to take her own life.
The problem with the man threatening to kill himself, and having a firearm taken from him for doing so - what does the state/local law read on that point? Was he involuntarily committed to a mental institution, which would disqualify him for firearms ownership? If not, what laws do you think should be/should not be changed?
It sucks having a friend commit suicide, had that done more than once. It sucks worse when you think you might have had something to do with it, but you don't - the choice is and always has been that individuals choice to take their own life. If you see warning signs, and there are plenty, (we issue cards with warning signs to watch for in the place most prone to suicide, PM me for the list if you want it sometime), then YES, get involved, do what you can, but if you don't and someone does take the cowards way out, always remember and never forget it's NOT your fault.

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]