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Author Topic: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn  (Read 8342 times)

Thernlund

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The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
« on: March 31, 2016, 10:06:47 am »
Uh-oh....

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/03/31/fireclean-llc-sues-andrew-tuohy-and-everett-baker-in-federal-court/

Bad news for Andrew Tuohy and Everett Baker right now, maybe bad news (precedent-wise) for blogs and forums later.

Tangle with a bull, get the horns?  Hmm.


-T.

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    870policemag

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 10:34:51 am »
    That sucks. Geez...They can't take a little criticism? I hope Andrew makes it out unscathed.
    Bullets are the only things that do their job only after they're fired.

    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 10:53:53 am »
    Mm... He might win, but unless he has very deep pockets, he won't win.  Know what I mean?  Fireclean sounds like they're ready to go to the mattresses on this.   :-\


    -T.

    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 04:56:36 pm »
    I'm not sure a legal entity like an LLP would protect someone from a libel suit.  They'd just name both the LLP and him.


    -T.

    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 09:04:14 pm »
    Hmm. I still use CriscoCLEAN.  I read the articles from both of those guys.   While I was skeptical of Tuohy (read like a smear piece), Everett's article convinced me it really was just canola oil.  But the CriscoCLEAN worked so well in my Delta Elite, I kept using it anyway. 

    If it turns out it never was just canola oil, these guys got some splainin to do.  For their sakes, they'd better hope they are found to be just reporting, rather than inventing results.  I'm sure CriscoCLEAN will have no problem proving income loss directly resulting from Crisco-gate.  Seems the whole case hinges on  how factual their reporting is and whether they lied about their own testing in order to smear Crisco.

    As for the 1st amendment argument, yes you have the right to say what you want.  But you also have to be responsible for what you say.   Don't agree?  Ever been married?

    What these guys alegedly did was probably not a crime, but they very well could be responsible for tanking a business, alegedly.
     
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    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 09:14:28 pm »



    The big takeaway for me is this - if one man publishing his opinion on a blog can raise this much stink for FC that they feel the need to sue then ANYONE can make a difference.

    The way I read this, he isn't being sued for publishing his opinion,  but for knowingly publishing false testing and presenting it as fact, and straight out saying Fireclean is ripping everyone off by repackaging canola oil at a 10,000% markup  This would rise to the definition of libel in this layman's oponion.

    But if he had merely stated that Fireclean sucks and he believes it's nothing more than Crisco, that's an opinion, and certainly defensible.



    In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 10:09:30 pm »
    I read part of the pleading.  Their argument seems to center on the idea that Baker and Tuohy didn't just post some test results but rather went after them maliciously.  The pleading contains some pretty damning evidence that would seem to hint as much.  They didn't just do the test and let it go, they went after them again and again and then stirred the pot in commentary.  I don't think that's going to be good for them unfortunately.

    I don't know.  We'll see I guess.  I hope he beats it, but everyone thought Jesse Ventura wouldn't win either.  We know how that turned out.   :-\


    -T.

    RetroG

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 12:45:19 am »
    The problem FireClean is going to have is proving that their product really isn't canola oil.  Which means they are going to have to reveal what is different about it, if anything. 

    The maliciously going after FireClean only applies if what was said ISN'T the truth.  If it is true, then FireClean has no case, and will lose.

    ItWasntMe

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 09:16:43 am »
    This is BS. If you engage in the sale of snake oil, don't be surprised when someone challenges the veracity of your claims... In this case, rather scientifically.
    Have you considered the possibility that pathological narcissism is genetic?

    Marx-ism's

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 11:47:53 am »
    Personally I think many/most of these high tech gun lubes are snake oil to some degree...  That said I still use Frog Lube, regardless of whether or not some naysayer claims that it's actually based on roller coaster lube.  :-P
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

    Rusty Young Man

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 02:45:09 pm »

    The way I read this, he isn't being sued for publishing his opinion,  but for knowingly publishing false testing and presenting it as fact, and straight out saying Fireclean is ripping everyone off by repackaging canola oil at a 10,000% markup  This would rise to the definition of libel in this layman's oponion.

    But if he had merely stated that Fireclean sucks and he believes it's nothing more than Crisco, that's an opinion, and certainly defensible.

    Don't know if it was or is "knowingly". Looking at the IR alone is not definitive. Neither is looking at the NMR spectra alone (the "gold standard"; I've heard it as well and we use it exactly for this reason). That said, comparing BOTH of them and arriving at nearly identical results kind of narrows down the possibilities*. The thing that Tuohy and Baker both did wrong with the testing itself is the lack of independent analysis by folks who would be willing to come forward publicly to support the findings.

    Given that FireClean and the lab they hired to run tests did NOT (to my knowledge) publish full spectra or, better yet, the RAW data files, I'm still more inclined to believe Baker and Tuohy.

    Yes, I looked at the iodine, flash point, pour point, and specific gravity (density) results that FireClean introduced in the case.

    The problem FireClean is going to have is proving that their product really isn't canola oil.  Which means they are going to have to reveal what is different about it, if anything. 

    The maliciously going after FireClean only applies if what was said ISN'T the truth.  If it is true, then FireClean has no case, and will lose.

    I think it does boil down to what you posted.


    *Think of it this way: you have a duck and some unknown, proprietary bird:

    You look at physical characteristics (let's call this shared "oil characteristics"), which puts them both in the "duck-like" category.
    You hear two "quack-like" calls (let's call this "smoke point testing"), and they both still fit in the "duck-like" category.
    Next, you look at bone structure (let's call this "NMR analysis"), and again they both fit in the "duck-like" category.
    While not definitive, you've pretty much narrowed down the possibilities. The likelihood of you having a duck and a chicken is pretty much nil. Maybe you have a Campbell Duck and a Blue Swedish duck. Maybe it's a Campbell duck and a half-breed Campbell (canola oil and another oil, for instance).

    The only way to narrow it down further is to run further tests such as genetics (for instance "tandem mass spectroscopy"). But unless somebody is willing to run mass spectrometry ("MS") or some form of tandem MS (MS following chromatography, for instance), then TECHNICALLY we can not say "Yes, FireClean is nothing more than canola oil." All we CAN say definitively is "FireClean sure looks a HECK of a lot like canola oil, doesn't it? I wonder if it is nothing more than canola oil?"
    « Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 02:48:40 pm by Rusty Young Man »
    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.”-- Frederic Bastiat

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    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 06:16:47 pm »
    The maliciously going after FireClean only applies if what was said ISN'T the truth.  If it is true, then FireClean has no case, and will lose.

    That's not the only aspect.  You can post a factual account and be safe from a suit.  But that's not the only thing Tuohy and Baker did.  They published their test results and then proceeded to fan the flames of discontent with commentary that was derogatory.

    You can't relate a factual story and afterwards add insult to injury by engaging in editorial libel.  Journalists have been successfully sued for exactly this.  This is exactly how Jesse Ventura won his suit.  It wasn't Kyle's the book, it was what he said after.

    That's why I'd be concerned for Tuohy and Baker.  They could lose not for the report, but for what they did after they published their report.

    Libel is a really complex area of law.  I don't know even close enough about it to know if this has real legs, but it's certainly easy enough to just look around and know that it's not anywhere near cut and dried.


    -T.


    EDIT:  I asked around and apparently there's also an aspect of defamation law that if a given fact is already widely known or accepted before you set about reporting on said fact and you knew that in advance, you can be held at fault for damages that you caused even if you told the truth IF said damages are extreme compared to the damage already caused by the already known fact.

    Basically, if everybody already knew John's product was snake oil but somehow he managed to stay in business, then Jim comes along and publishes what everyone already knew in an attempt to finally drive John out of business, then even though Jim told the truth he can still be held responsible for the damage he did.

    I'm sure I butchered that in relaying it.  And of course I don't know if that aspect will play here.  I'm no attorney.  But it's a possible aspect in any case.  :-/
    « Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 06:55:33 pm by Thernlund »

    Dr. Football

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 01:48:23 pm »
    I think we need to get one of the channels like IraqiVet8888 to do a side by side melt down comparison.

    Melt an AR to the point of failure with Fire Clean in it and one with Canola oil.  If you want to do a 3rd AR then use something like Rem-Oil that was a gold standard for years before gun oils went high tech.

    Lather rinse repeat with an AK or Glock or something.

    If Canola out performs or lasts as long as FC then it doesn't matter what is in FC.  It could be synthesized from unicorn tears for all I care.

    I wanted us to have "Our own" channel, so maybe I get my pal Zev Nadler and his Drones and we do it ourselves.

    I'll keep you all posted where it winds up, but I'd do the top 5 Lubricants, and maybe get them to each donate a sample batch...bring it out to our favorite spot( which works for me since it's exactly 20 minutes from my Driveway to exit 278 on I-17.) and Video it. Now I know very little on the production side of what it takes to film a (Good) Gun Video, and don't kid yourselves, it's not just all about what camera(s) you use, but I've become friends with three heavy hitters, so my only chore in this is scripting it and organizing it. So besides FC( I almost don't want to mention them by full name because it seems like in Football, Shooting has a bunch a little bitches and someone might snitch and I don't care for any legal letters since I already had to sic my lawyer on some of my former partners enjoining them from using my former business name, which is service marked this past week. It seems outing them in my first book wasn't enough punishment.)
    So Again, Besides the company with the "High powered Legal team" and REMOil, who else would we put up for a side by side comparison? This would have to be done very carefully and I would not want anyone to come under the scrutiny of these people and their legal team....

    Misfire51

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #13 on: April 03, 2016, 01:36:30 pm »
    I will have to say Mobil 1 . Buy one bottle of 15/50  Mobil 1 syn and you have enough oil for life. Gun oil or not .. The stuff works..  :whistle
    Tony / Mighty Arms

    870policemag

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #15 on: April 03, 2016, 06:01:20 pm »
    And after the smoke clears everybody's lawyers all go out for a cocktail afterwards and schedule the next golf outing.   Meanwhile nobody in the firearms industry will give any of the lawsuit happy protagonists the time of day because this kind of thing is a circular firing squad.   I wonder if it ever occurred to any of these jackasses to just pick up the phone and call somebody if they had a problem with what was being said ?    :smh
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    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #16 on: April 04, 2016, 01:15:53 am »
    Man these guys are on one. Now they're going after the Weapon Shield dude.

    http://soldiersystems.net/2016/04/01/fireclean-llc-sues-george-fennell-and-steel-shield-technologies-in-federal-court-alleging-false-advertising/
    This one looks like it will stick.  He can't really hide behind the journalism shield, as he's a competitor doing business and primarily advertising via social media.

    These lawsuits aren't going to win them any customers back, imo.  But you a lot more people know who they are now.   It's all bad publicity,  but who can look away from a train wreck like this?  Drama + +
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    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #17 on: April 04, 2016, 07:36:14 pm »
    Anecdotal evidence,  my rifle treated and lubed with FC smells awful tasty after a 30rd magdump.
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    ItWasntMe

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #18 on: April 04, 2016, 09:55:14 pm »
    Surely, you didn't try to chew on the gun... or did you?
    Have you considered the possibility that pathological narcissism is genetic?

    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #19 on: April 05, 2016, 12:40:41 am »
    Surely, you didn't try to chew on the gun... or did you?
    No,  but perhaps this is where MATTV2099 got started mixing food and guns.   I bet he tried Fireclean.  For those who don't know who I'm talking about, 

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    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 03:14:25 pm »
    Statement from FIREClean, via TFB...

    Quote
    FireClean LLC has recently filed a lawsuit against Andrew Tuohy and Everett Baker, asserting defamation and Virginia Business Conspiracy Act claims against these defendants, who with the specific purpose of harming FireClean, initiated a protracted and intentional smear campaign against the company.

    FIREClean’s patent application was publicly accessible online two years before Tuohy wrote about FIREClean®. The patent application, on the very first page, describes a product that is composed of at least three substances, which may be plant or vegetable-based oils, and which make up between 25 and 100 percent of the formulation. Tuohy never undertook to test this statement. He chose a test that would give him the result he wanted so that he could publish sensational headlines. An infrared spectroscopy analysis was not sufficient to distinguish FIREClean® from Crisco vegetable or canola oil, and Tuohy knew this. Moreover, even after publishing his articles, Tuohy was alerted to this fact by other readers of his blog, and he never undertook to correct his analysis or conclusions.

    When Tuohy told us that he intended to publish his first article- the night before he published it- and told us what his conclusions would be, we asked him for a chance to read it first, so we could provide a proper response. He refused. In his blog post he stated, “That is not how this blog works.”

    Clearly, Tuohy wanted to turn a blind eye to anything that might tamper down his eye-grabbing headlines. He wanted readership, not the truth.

    Some recent public social media comments have compared our suit against Tuohy to a David-versus-Goliath First Amendment case. It is anything but that. In fact, Tuohy has as many aircraft registered in his name as FireClean has employees (two). FireClean is a small business that has been subject to an unprovoked and unfair attack.

    FIREClean® is not Crisco Vegetable nor Canola oil – nor otherwise common vegetable oil. FIREClean® is a proprietary, high-efficiency formulation that yielded unprecedented results in Tuohy’s own live-fire use. Tuohy’s separate statements that are the subject of our lawsuit were false, continuous, persistent, and maliciously made. FireClean has no choice but self defense. Anyone who thinks the company is wrong for doing so has clearly never had their livelihood attacked by someone engaged in a protracted smear campaign.

    The Citizens of the United States of America certainly enjoy the freedom of speech provided in the First Amendment. But just as it is illegal to run into a crowded theater and yell “fire” when there is no fire, there are limits on—and repercussions to—speech that is intentionally or negligently false, that causes harm to another. These are the rights that we seek to vindicate.

    SOURCE:  http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/04/11/fireclean-releases-statement-on-vuurwapen-lawsuit/

    FIREClean aren't wrong in that last paragraph.  Free speech can have consequences if you abuse it. 

    FC demanded a jury trial, which would seem to imply that they're not looking for a settlement.  FC will have to reveal the formula in court and show it isn't what Tuohy said it was.  They'd know that before pursuing this.  Their attorneys especially would.  They have to think they're good to go on that front.

    And based on all I've seen, Tuohy and Baker aren't totally guiltless here.  There is a malicious element there after you dive into the minute details. 

    However scumbaggish FC might be in suing over this, I think Tuohy and Baker should be worried.  There's a nuance here that could have them in hot water.  And scumbags win in court all the time.  :-\   


    -T.



    (P.S.  Forgive me... working in the legal industry, being a gun guy, and owning a forum, I'm kind of riveted to this.  Not in a 'car crash' sense, but more from the perspective how the details shake out and how it will impact internet commentary in general.  It'll be interesting to see where the court draws the line, especially if Tuohy/Baker lose and can afford to appeal to a higher court.  And, I don't feel like I'm fueling any fires.  If I did, I'd shut up.)

    FACE

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 03:31:30 pm »
    I too am quite interested, so keep it coming!
    In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

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    Thernlund

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #22 on: July 22, 2016, 10:58:11 am »
    ZOMBIE THREAD

    Looks like FIREClean's petitions gets dismissed...

    Quote
    This morning, United States District Court Judge James C. Cacheris issued an order dismissing Fireclean v. Tuohy on jurisdictional grounds. This means that Fireclean could appeal this ruling or attempt to refile the case in Arizona (and, presumably, a separate filing against Everett Baker in New Hampshire) before the statute of limitations expires.

    However, this is the third loss in a row for Fireclean relating to this case – denial of their motion for jurisdictional discovery, denial of their appeal of that denial, and the dismissal of the case – with no victories to show on their side over the last four months.

    MORE: http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/news-storieseventsopinion/fireclean-v-tuohy-dismissed/

    If FC chooses to refile in Arizona, I guess we'll see what happens.

    Sounds like it's a war of attrition at this point.  Good for Tuohy for being able to keep up.


    -T.

    870policemag

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    Re: The FIREClean circus heats up, takes a serious turn
    « Reply #23 on: July 22, 2016, 03:43:03 pm »
    Nice. :thumbup

    I think you mentioned his blog years ago. Thanks. It's on my list of gun blogs that I keep tabs on.
    Bullets are the only things that do their job only after they're fired.

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