Convenience store self-defense shooting?

[Thernlund]

This has been make a lot of rounds on social media lately.  Many of you have probably seen it...




http://www.guns.com/2016/06/01/no-charges-for-armed-citizen-who-fatally-shot-angry-gas-station-customer-video/

I'm interested in comments on the matter.

My position is that the gun guy walking out to get a license plate number was a defacto insertion of himself into an otherwise non-life-threatening situation.  When he did that he escalated the situation.  It doesn't seem to me that any lives were threatened until he threatened them.  He should have kept his yap shut, kept a distance, and got the plate number from inside as the other guy drove away.  No imminent threat, just be a good witness. 

It's all Monday Morning Quarterbacking I guess.  But none  the less I don't feel like a gun was necessary here at all.  And I don't particularly care what the law says on the matter.  'Justified' does not always equal 'right'.

I think this could have gone down a dozen better ways. 


-T.

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]

[870policemag]

I agree. He should have never grabbed his gun, even if that guy was making death threats but you know what they say about squeezing tooth paste out of the tube.

I ounce had a guy that was acting crazy and violent. He wouldn't leave the shop despite the fact that I called 911 and told him the police were on their way. He started pacing back and forth. I sat down at my work station where I had a roll of paper towels. He ran up to me with his hands in his pocket and punched those paper towels that happened to be next to my face.

I didn't draw my pistol but I did stand up , step back and removed any obstacles in my way. He said "shoot me motherf**ker", do it!" 
I took a deep breath and waited for the police to arrive. It was so stressful. Your body is telling to fight but your mind is telling you otherwise.

 People like him have nothing to loose and scare me the most. They aren't scared of going to jail or getting shot. Sorta like the "Death by cop" guys.

[6.5 Gunner]

Well he didn't immediately draw it and start waiving it around, in fact he showed some pretty good restraint IMO. He pushed the guy back several times with his weapon drawn before firing. From what I saw in the video he fired once, the threat hit the ground, and he stopped (at least from what I see). As for checking the LPN I don't think there is a right answer the guy was already a nut case and their is no indication that he was going to his vehicle to leave, and because I like playing devil's advocate and inciting debate I'll be bold and say maybe he had a reason to believe he was going back to his car to grab a weapon. I don't know how you older gentlemen feel but I'm 25 and don't feel like playing on even terms with people like this.   

[Thernlund]

As for checking the LPN I don't think there is a right answer the guy was already a nut case and their is no indication that he was going to his vehicle to leave...   

Eh?  The guy was in his vehicle.  That seems like a pretty clear indication of leaving.  He only got out when gun dude approached.


-T.

[870policemag]

Never pull a gun out unless you plan on using it. This is a prime example of how pulling a gun out can further escalate things. 

[6.5 Gunner]

Eh?  The guy was in his vehicle.  That seems like a pretty clear indication of leaving.  He only got out when gun dude approached.


-T.

How many times have you heard of someone "leaving" and then coming back with a [insert weapon here]. I get in my vehicle all the time and don't go anywhere. I've seen people who are pissed off leave, get in a car/walk away, come back, and go back to arguing. Unless that guy had his keys in the ignition (which isn't info provided) saying he was actually going to leave is a matter of opinion.

[fr3db3ar]

I don't feel like the open carrier escalated anything.  The perp had already been outside once and came back in once.  He was trying to be a good witness.  There was no reason for the perp to be continuously aggressive. He obviously had issues.

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[Thernlund]

How many times have you heard of someone "leaving" and then coming back with a [insert weapon here]. I get in my vehicle all the time and don't go anywhere. I've seen people who are pissed off leave, get in a car/walk away, come back, and go back to arguing. Unless that guy had his keys in the ignition (which isn't info provided) saying he was actually going to leave is a matter of opinion.

He might have come back in, I don't know.  But gun dude still should have stayed inside I think.  I have to assume the cops were called.  So wait it out.  There was no immediate threat to life.  The only threat I saw was some tossed chips.  If he leaves, get the plate as he's driving away.  If he doesn't leave, carefully observe and wait for the cops.  Retreat to a secure spot and call again if you must.

His going out there was directly responsible for angry dude messing with him. 


-T.

[FreeInAZ]

We don't know many many things here.  We don't know the relationship between the clerk & the armed citizen, or the angry customer. We also don't know if threats were made? You tell me I'm going to my car that's one thing. You say " you're dead mother bleeper" and go to your car I damn sure don't rule out that you are retrieving a weapon or are going to use the car/van as a weapon.

The angry customer clearly knew he had broken some laws, so of course he didn't want his plate number taken down.

I won't fault the armed citizen for trying to get it. That's like blaming a victim for being victimized.

The reason the A HOLES of our society feel empowered is: they know all too often people will just: sit back, do nothing & "shut their yap"...

[6.5 Gunner]

His going out there was directly responsible for angry dude messing with him. 


-T.

Maybe, but all I see in my head is "man who accosted gas station clerk comes back 30 min. later and kills him". It is what it is, no charges being brought up. On another note we can fly probes to the edge of the solar system but still can't make a security camera that captures sound, anyone who makes that tech wins all the money.

[ynotaz]

Oh hell I'll jump into the speculation only because it's fun

The guy left twice and came back.  The second time the store manager pointed him out at the door, when he came back again he was trespassing, he threw stuff at the store manager, assault/battery he knocked over sunglasses, property damage he pushed the store manager assault/battery he pushed and pulled the gun guy assault/battery he pushed the gun guy into an isle with no exit, cornering him, that is a threat by someone who is and has been assaulting you and who is not backing off.  Bang.

Only in California would this not be a good shoot.

[Wyatt Earp]

If you continue to mess with a guy who has a gun, you should expect at some point in time, you might become enough of a threat where you get your ass shot.  The armed guy did nothing wrong by going out to look at a license plate.  Bad guy kept choosing to escalate the situation and turned what would have been a drunken asshole story into a shooting.  Bad guy had plenty of opportunity to leave and did not avail himself of those opportunities.  Video shows the armed guy used restraint.  Only critique would be if you pull it, use it, especially in those close quarters against a drunk/crazy guy who is bigger than you.  Seems like armed guy thought pulling the gun would scare the bad guy away, that's not what a gun is used for.

[Thernlund]

Let me be clear here just in case I haven't been already.... I'm not arguing matters of law nor do I care to.  The law has (sort of) spoken on the matter; justified.  DA/CA says he's not charging him, that's fine with me.  I'm not advocating for charging him.  I'm not even advocating for not shooting the crazy guy.  In a cosmic sense the jackass probably deserved it.

My sole knitpick is that gun dude's "help" didn't seem to be required in the first place.  Mind your own business guy.  Stand back, be a witness, and let the idiots be idiots.  The clerk didn't appear to be very threatened, having apparently shouted back and even chased the guy outside twice.  Why did you feel it was your duty to be the big dick on the scene?  Because of some thrown chips?  Pff.   

We don't know many many things here.

Certainly you're right.  I guess my beef isn't with this one incident per se, but with the bullshit "sheepdog" mentality in general.  This news blurb just flipped my switch. 


-T.

[N.M.Edmands]

The gun comes out when someone needs to be shot right f'n now! Everything else was theater for the ego.

[870policemag]

My sole knitpick is that gun dude's "help" didn't seem to be required in the first place.  Mind your own business guy.  Stand back, be a witness, and let the idiots be idiots.  The clerk didn't appear to be very threatened, having apparently shouted back and even chased the guy outside twice.  Why did you feel it was your duty to be the big dick on the scene?  Because of some thrown chips?  Pff.   

Certainly you're right.  I guess my beef isn't with this one incident per se, but with the bullshit "sheepdog" mentality in general.  This news blurb just flipped my switch. 


-T.

Yup...He could have just pretended to read a magazine or the label off a candy bar. That's what I usually do if I feel the need to be a white night. Showing an armed presence is a good deterrent. Now he has blood on his hands. Blood that could have been avoided. But that's just me putting myself in the shoes of the shooter. I don't think I could live with myself knowing that I shot a man over a pushing contest. If I saw something sharp or a muzzle then that would be a different story.

[coyotesfan97]

A guy disturbing the peace in a convenience store call?  Yawn  stand back and be a witness.

[ynotaz]

My sole knitpick is that gun dude's "help" didn't seem to be required in the first place.  Mind your own business guy.  Stand back, be a witness, and let the idiots be idiots. 
Certainly you're right.  I guess my beef isn't with this one incident per se, but with the bullshit "sheepdog" mentality in general.  This news blurb just flipped my switch. 

-T.

I understand switch flipping but consider that we are looking at this from today's politically correct world. Not so many years ago, the gun dude and the guy in the white tea shirt would have likely joined the store manager in kicking this guys Butt back to wherever he came from rather than the store manager taking him to the door and pointing a finger to get out.

Going back a bit further in time:

In 1867 the British philosopher and political theorist John Stuart Mill said "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing."

Today, we do nothing for fear of law suits and laws that are written to protect the bad men.

[Kronos]

There are a couple of things the armed citizen did that I could MMQB. Overall, though, I think criticizing his actions is shifting the blame in the wrong direction. The person causing a disruption had plenty of opportunities to walk away, but didn't. Go lookin' for trouble, and eventually, you'll find it.

Sure, the armed citizen didn't have to get involved. Then again, maybe the reason why some people are assholes is because they know most others won't do a thing about it.

[LuckyLeaky]

I would have shot him for parking on the parking spot line....

[coelacanth]

Yup.  That'll teach the inconsiderate a**hat.   

[qkarl]

I agree with T that he should have stayed out of it to begin with. Failing that, I would've gone to pepper spray first as I don't think this warranted a lethal response. However, I also agree that legally no charges should be pressed since he did try to retreat multiple times and got cornered in a very bad spot, with many potential weapons (bottles) in arms reach of the aggressor (though if I was as big and strong as the guy I would've just punched him in the face).

[fr3db3ar]

Or at least taken out a knee.

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[6.5 Gunner]

Failing that, I would've gone to pepper spray first

No way, pepper spray is for animals   

Edit: I only advise pepper spray for people who can't carry (NY, NJ, CA, etc) because it's not like they are allowed to live free anyway. I've been CS gassed (multiple times) and pepper sprayed a few times for training demos and I could still open my eyes briefly and get my bearings. It sucked but not enough to incapacitate. 

[ynotaz]

This is the fun part. 

Let's see how many folks take this as thoughtful discussion and rebut or just get pissed off and react.

surprised his shirt wasn't used against him" and "Surprised he got off"
Isn't that more a reflection of today's political environment of don't get involved, don't make waves, don't worry we have law enforcement, police are just minutes away?  At least 2 felonies were committed before the gun guy fired, and that is ignoring him being trapped in a dead end isle by an attacker.

"Pepper spray"
Assuming he had any, some people think it tastes good and when your back is to a dead end they can get at you with their eyes closed swollen closed by pepper spray.

"take out a knee cap"
That is contrary to any form of training.

"disturbing the peace"
As soon as he hit the clerk with the bag of whatever, it was escalated to assault/battery.

"Sure, the armed citizen didn't have to get involved. Then again, maybe the reason why some people are assholes is because they know most others won't do a thing about it"
A modern rephrasing of "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" <----  That I agree with

[fr3db3ar]

When I commented about knee, I was thinking a good swift kick, not a shot.  Just for clarification.

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