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Author Topic: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?  (Read 1404 times)

monster

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Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« on: October 22, 2016, 10:20:27 PM »
Any references to supporting information saying Form 1 SBR would not need to be engraved if not for sale? Thanks!!

steve2md

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 07:57:43 AM »
I'm reasonably certain that you'll still need to engrave anything you form 1. Selling or not
Heat it till it's hot, then beat it with a hammer until it's the shape you want.    Blacksmith's advice that works for pretty much everything in life

ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 09:06:30 AM »
If you manufacture it, i.e. cut the barrel, taking it from a rifle to an SBR or add a stock taking it from a pistol to an SBR;

you have to put the manufacturer's name and location on it. 

Thernlund

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 10:02:28 AM »
Theory vs. Reality vs. Truth

Theory:  Engraving is absolutely a legal requirement and can be shown in the law.  And you're going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison if you don't do it!

Reality:  I've personally seen Form 1s approved without custom markings being shown on the form.  But I've also seen a handful that were returned ostensibly due to lack of custom markings (note that getting a form returned is an inconvenience, not a crime).  All depends on the examiner that reviews your form.  But because of the theory above, you're not going to hear many people say they are among those who forewent engraving without issue.

The ATF isn't going to send ninjas to your door.  Nobody has ever served time for simply not engraving a form-approved SBR.  Assuming you're not already in trouble for worse crap, what they'd likely do is frown at you disapproving, scare you a bit with big words, and give you a couple weeks to remedy the situation.  And that's if they even had a reason to come see you about it, which if you're a law-abiding citizen, they don't.  The ATF really doesn't give a damn about you either way.

Truth:  You'll never get a definitive answer that will be satisfactory.  Ever.  Not from an attorney, not even from the ATF themselves, and certainly not from the internet. 

Engrave if it bothers you, don't if you're ok with not.  Obey the spirit of the law as you understand it, act in good faith on all things, and the universe will generally treat you accordingly.


-T. 
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monster

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 12:13:45 PM »
I appreciate the feedback!

Had a NFA dealer tell me that makers (form 1 folks), did not need to engrave their lowers as they can merely adopt the engravings which were done by the manufacturer. Also, I noticed there was an attorney who posted a link to a ruling by the ATF stating an individual could adopt those markings, but it did not clarify form 1. The NFA dealer specifically mentioned something about the engraving markings only really applying to items that are for sale.

I would engrave regardless, just to play it safe.
 Now, if there was solid supporting information saying folks did not need to engrave, why do so?

Here is a link to the attorneys reference to the ATF ruling...
http://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-the-requirements-for-engraving-an-item-you-are-building-on-a-form-1/

ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 02:08:59 PM »
Theory vs. Reality vs. Truth

Theory:  Engraving is absolutely a legal requirement and can be shown in the law.  And you're going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison if you don't do it!

Reality:  I've personally seen Form 1s approved without custom markings being shown on the form.  But I've also seen a handful that were returned ostensibly due to lack of custom markings (note that getting a form returned is an inconvenience, not a crime).  All depends on the examiner that reviews your form.  But because of the theory above, you're not going to hear many people say they are among those who forewent engraving without issue.

The ATF isn't going to send ninjas to your door.  Nobody has ever served time for simply not engraving a form-approved SBR.  Assuming you're not already in trouble for worse crap, what they'd likely do is frown at you disapproving, scare you a bit with big words, and give you a couple weeks to remedy the situation.  And that's if they even had a reason to come see you about it, which if you're a law-abiding citizen, they don't.  The ATF really doesn't give a damn about you either way.

Truth:  You'll never get a definitive answer that will be satisfactory.  Ever.  Not from an attorney, not even from the ATF themselves, and certainly not from the internet. 

Engrave if it bothers you, don't if you're ok with not.  Obey the spirit of the law as you understand it, act in good faith on all things, and the universe will generally treat you accordingly.


-T.

I don't understand?  Where are there any custom marking on the Form 1 that the ATF approves?  I've never seen that. 

I've only see the marking on a firearm which is very well spelled out in the law and I have seen then sent back to be remarked because they were not done correctly.  I've also seen the ATF do inspections upon retransfer of something done on a form 1 years earlier just because it was described differently on a subsequent form 4.

As you stated, anyone can do whatever they want and just like ignoring 922r, in most cases nobody cares.  It is just when someone wants your butt, then the Al Capone affect kicks in.  They can't get you for what they want to get you for but they get you for something else, and you die in jail. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 02:11:21 PM by ynotaz »

ItWasntMe

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 02:14:31 PM »
If you form 1 after it's manufactured as a firearm then you need to engrave either: Name, City, State or Trust, City, State. You're the manufacturer of an NFA item.
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ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2016, 02:23:36 PM »
Oh, just one more thing:

If you are ever found with any NFA item for any reason by an AZ LEO, please read Arizona Revised Statutes 13-3101.

They are all ILLEAL, Unless

"B. The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are possessed, manufactured or transferred in compliance with federal law."

The federal law includes ":marking" them if you are a manufacturer.  So you could be jailed on an Arizona felony even if you didn't intend or ever want to sell it and the feds didn't give a damn. 

freeman1685

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2016, 02:56:44 PM »
You might want to go back and re-read that statute, sir.  Because you have totally got that wrong.

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ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2016, 04:31:26 PM »
Then I missed something.  Can you explain?

"13-3101. Definitions

A. In this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. "Deadly weapon" means anything that is designed for lethal use. The term includes a firearm.
2. "Deface" means to remove, alter or destroy the manufacturer's serial number.
3. "Explosive" means any dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder, or other similar explosive material, including plastic explosives. Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components such as primers, percussion caps, smokeless powder, black powder and black powder substitutes used for hand loading purposes.
4. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
5. "Improvised explosive device" means a device that incorporates explosives or destructive, lethal, noxious, pyrotechnic or incendiary chemicals and that is designed to destroy, disfigure, terrify or harass.
6. "Occupied structure" means any building, object, vehicle, watercraft, aircraft or place with sides and a floor that is separately securable from any other structure attached to it, that is used for lodging, business, transportation, recreation or storage and in which one or more human beings either are or are likely to be present or so near as to be in equivalent danger at the time the discharge of a firearm occurs. Occupied structure includes any dwelling house, whether occupied, unoccupied or vacant.
7. "Prohibited possessor" means any person:
(a) Who has been found to constitute a danger to self or to others or to have a persistent or acute disability or grave disability pursuant to court order pursuant to section 36-540, and whose right to possess a firearm has not been restored pursuant to section 13-925.
(b) Who has been convicted within or without this state of a felony or who has been adjudicated delinquent for a felony and whose civil right to possess or carry a gun or firearm has not been restored.
(c) Who is at the time of possession serving a term of imprisonment in any correctional or detention facility.
(d) Who is at the time of possession serving a term of probation pursuant to a conviction for a domestic violence offense as defined in section 13-3601 or a felony offense, parole, community supervision, work furlough, home arrest or release on any other basis or who is serving a term of probation or parole pursuant to the interstate compact under title 31, chapter 3, article 4.1.
(e) Who is an undocumented alien or a nonimmigrant alien traveling with or without documentation in this state for business or pleasure or who is studying in this state and who maintains a foreign residence abroad. This subdivision does not apply to:
(i) Nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit that is lawfully issued by a state in the United States.
(ii) Nonimmigrant aliens who enter the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show that is sponsored by a national, state or local firearms trade organization devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms.
(iii) Certain diplomats.
(iv) Officials of foreign governments or distinguished foreign visitors who are designated by the United States department of state.
(v) Persons who have received a waiver from the United States attorney general.
(f) Who has been found incompetent pursuant to rule 11, Arizona rules of criminal procedure, and who subsequently has not been found competent.
(g) Who is found guilty except insane.
8. "Prohibited weapon":
(a) Includes the following:
(i) An item that is a bomb, grenade, rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces or mine and that is explosive, incendiary or poison gas.
(ii) A device that is designed, made or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm.
(iii) A firearm that is capable of shooting more than one shot automatically, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
(iv) A rifle with a barrel length of less than sixteen inches, or shotgun with a barrel length of less than eighteen inches, or any firearm that is made from a rifle or shotgun and that, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
(v) An instrument, including a nunchaku, that consists of two or more sticks, clubs, bars or rods to be used as handles, connected by a rope, cord, wire or chain, in the design of a weapon used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defense.
(vi) A breakable container that contains a flammable liquid with a flash point of one hundred fifty degrees Fahrenheit or less and that has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited.
(vii) A chemical or combination of chemicals, compounds or materials, including dry ice, that is possessed or manufactured for the purpose of generating a gas to cause a mechanical failure, rupture or bursting or an explosion or detonation of the chemical or combination of chemicals, compounds or materials.
(viii) An improvised explosive device.
(ix) Any combination of parts or materials that is designed and intended for use in making or converting a device into an item set forth in item (i), (vi) or (viii) of this subdivision.
(b) Does not include:
(i) Any fireworks that are imported, distributed or used in compliance with state laws or local ordinances.
(ii) Any propellant, propellant actuated devices or propellant actuated industrial tools that are manufactured, imported or distributed for their intended purposes.
(iii) A device that is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.
9. "Trafficking" means to sell, transfer, distribute, dispense or otherwise dispose of a weapon or explosive to another person, or to buy, receive, possess or obtain control of a weapon or explosive, with the intent to sell, transfer, distribute, dispense or otherwise dispose of the weapon or explosive to another person.
B. The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are possessed, manufactured or transferred in compliance with federal law.

steve2md

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 05:10:02 PM »
Off topic, but I wonder....

Since Nunchuckau are legal Federally, so does this little bit

"B. The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are possessed, manufactured or transferred in compliance with federal law."

Nullify the AZ ban on carrying them?

Not that it matters, the likelihood of ever being fined/arrested for them is pretty slim....
Heat it till it's hot, then beat it with a hammer until it's the shape you want.    Blacksmith's advice that works for pretty much everything in life

freeman1685

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2016, 05:16:25 PM »
ynotaz, 13.3101.A.8 describes weapons that are prohibited, EXCEPT under the circumstances listed in 13.3101.B.  Meaning that if they are properly licensed or permitted by Fed statute, they are ABSOLUTELY, and PERFECTLY lawful to possess.

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 05:22:50 PM by freeman1685 »

freeman1685

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2016, 05:35:43 PM »
Off topic, but I wonder....

Since Nunchuckau are legal Federally, so does this little bit

"B. The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are possessed, manufactured or transferred in compliance with federal law."

Nullify the AZ ban on carrying them?

Not that it matters, the likelihood of ever being fined/arrested for them is pretty slim....
It's not so much that nunchaku are legal federally, it's more along the lines that they aren't ILLEGAL.  To my knowledge there is no federal statute that specifically applies to them, except possibly import regulations.  It's not unlawful to possess them in AZ, it's unlawful to CARRY them on your person.

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 05:40:08 PM by freeman1685 »

steve2md

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2016, 07:07:12 PM »
  It's not unlawful to possess them in AZ, it's unlawful to CARRY them on your person.
Right, I've quotes such here before, though you can carry them in a case or bag for transport to a dojo or competition (the proper wording escapes me at the moment) I was curious if it effected the ability to carry them(as an actual weapon).
Heat it till it's hot, then beat it with a hammer until it's the shape you want.    Blacksmith's advice that works for pretty much everything in life

ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2016, 09:09:10 PM »
ynotaz, 13.3101.A.8 describes weapons that are prohibited, EXCEPT under the circumstances listed in 13.3101.B.  Meaning that if they are properly licensed or permitted by Fed statute, they are ABSOLUTELY, and PERFECTLY lawful to possess.

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That was my point.  Federal Code requires marking by the manufacturer or possession will be a state felony because federal code was not followed.  Did I miss something?

freeman1685

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2016, 09:10:22 PM »
If it's got federal paper it's legal.  Done.

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Thernlund

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2016, 09:57:02 PM »
I don't understand?  Where are there any custom marking on the Form 1 that the ATF approves?  I've never seen that.

I'm referring to engraving.  The internet lawyers opine that such markings are supposed to go in box 4h.  I however have seen stamped/approved forms with that box containing either random pre-existing markings or left blank.


As you stated, anyone can do whatever they want and just like ignoring 922r, in most cases nobody cares.  It is just when someone wants your butt, then the Al Capone affect kicks in.  They can't get you for what they want to get you for but they get you for something else, and you die in jail. 

You have to be a pretty big fish for that to happen.  If you're the sort that rises to that level of consideration, not having your name on your approved SBR doesn't even make it on to your list of worries.


-T.
    The views expressed in this post are personal views only and not those of AZGO.  AZGO doesn't have views.  It's a piece of software.

ynotaz

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2016, 05:43:17 AM »
You have to be a pretty big fish for that to happen.  If you're the sort that rises to that level of consideration, not having your name on your approved SBR doesn't even make it on to your list of worries.
-T.

Remember the "Viper Militia". 

Isn't it worth $40 to avoid the cost of defending in state or federal court even if you are right?  Or the inconvenience of having your firearm seized as evidence for an undetermined amount of time while you are proving how right you are?

Thernlund

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2016, 10:00:36 AM »
Remember the "Viper Militia". 

:rolleyes   I'm not that.  Neither are you.  Those blow-hard idiots probably didn't deserve what happened to them, but they were blow-hard idiots none the less.  Do dumbass things and for right or wrong dumbass things will happen to you, hm?


Isn't it worth $40 to avoid the cost of defending in state or federal court even if you are right?  Or the inconvenience of having your firearm seized as evidence for an undetermined amount of time while you are proving how right you are?

Maybe.  Maybe not.  :shrug

I can appreciate that you're trying to find some point of agreement in me.  But I'm not inclined to agree that everyone should just roll right over for a vague and untested regulation that has no history of being prosecuted and little to no meaningful impact on anything.  I feel that in cases like this each individual should read the regs and make their own decision on how to proceed.  I'm sure monster will do just that.

Here's a quote from Robert Heinlein that a friend of mine is fond of relating in debates like this...

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

And that's how it is.  :mellow


-T.
    The views expressed in this post are personal views only and not those of AZGO.  AZGO doesn't have views.  It's a piece of software.

LuckyLeaky

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2016, 11:43:53 AM »
^^^^
That is a good quote...
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life... -Winston Churchill

 Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.

ItWasntMe

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2016, 04:50:49 AM »


[...] Here's a quote from Robert Heinlein that a friend of mine is fond of relating in debates like this...

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

And that's how it is.  :mellow
That's a very good quote.
Have you considered the possibility that pathological narcissism is genetic?

EBR Works

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2017, 07:59:36 PM »
First let me clarify that we're an NFA manufacturer (07FFL/02SOT). When we manufacture something, whether it's a rifle, pistol, SBR/SBS, suppressor or MG, we must engrave it with model, caliber, SN plus our company name, city and state. If there are pre-existing manufacturer markings (serial number, model, caliber), we use those. If it's an NFA item, we file a form 2 after the item is manufactured by the end of business the next day as required by the ATF. When the ATF comes for a compliance inspection, they will expect to see every manufactured item properly engraved and documented.

As an individual, you file a form 1 for permission to build your NFA item. Once it's approved you do your build and engrave model, caliber, SN plus your name or trust name and city, state. If there are pre-existing manufacturer markings (serial number, model, caliber), you can use those. If you ever encounter the ATF, they will expect your firearm to be engraved correctly. Count on it..
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:00:06 PM by EBR Works »
EBR Works
FFL07/02SOT

RSM

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2017, 08:53:22 PM »
I'm waiting on my Form 1 to be approved. Hopefully I don't have to wait too much longer. Bottom line...I'm engraving mine. I don't need the hassle and from what I've read and what's been posted here, your suppose to engrave them.

SilentOperator

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Re: Form 1 SBR, no engraving necessary if not selling?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2017, 07:01:11 PM »
No matter of the intentions, it must be engraved after the approval.

hikingwithguns

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