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Author Topic: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?  (Read 2916 times)

RetroG

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2016, 01:10:13 PM »
Maybe Aluminum as a sabot material?

Dropping a 200 kilo (440 lbs) target limits the commonly available calibers.  The FAL folding charging handle is a good solution for the pokey thing sticking out, though.  The weight involved tends to disqualify semi autos (I even like semis, they just end up being heavier). 

I think I need a bolt action.  My problem is I tend to like less common calibers.  Like 6.5mm whatever.

JarheadAZ

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2016, 07:37:32 AM »
First, the 200Kg weight requirement is arbitrary (just like most of the other requirements), and I think it's open to interpretation and some serous flexibility, maybe even deletion.

Secondly, sabots are a very different proposition. Their composition has to relate to the fact that they act like a jacket material in the bore with regard to friction and fouling. I wouldn't begin to know how to remove aluminum fouling. Plastic, Teflon, or other resins fail because they don't generate enough bore friction (IMHO). Typical fouling comes down to copper, lead, and carbon. I see some manifestation of those materials as a likelier proposition; at least the contemporary bore cleaning regimens are geared to remove them.

Military big bore applications employ sabots successfully.

Sabots were also the subject of some healthy discussion at SH, where experiments led to some LR shotgun sabot experimentation. The 20ga and sabot with a Spitzer boat tail projectile showed particular promise. The Savage 220 20ga rifle (that's what it is, actually) has a 24" twist and is ideally suited to project sabots with ballistics very similar to the .44 Magnum and/or .45-70 buffalo guns' longer range trajectories (more like a howitzer...).

I also see this fascinating subject of sabots being the basis of a different discussion, which I would welcome if framed in a separate topic.

The AR/Stoner operating handle design is actually a pretty good solution to the situation when combined with some means to effect a forward assist.

I also like my own idea of incorporating some sort of a manual pump action cocking and cycling option on a semi as an alternative.


But what I especially like is the way this topic has stimulated open and positive discussion on this site. I would like to see more of this, and would also like to start serving more actively here to promote such discussions. Maybe others would like this sort of discussion, too.  I'd like to see others' views on such an idea.

I also share a special liking for the 6.5, and really don't consider it as an uncommon caliber. And yes, bolt guns are more prolific about available chamberings, but that's kinda likely more a matter of marketing (as in, if the makers can't identify a large enough market, they don't make it).

Greg Langelius
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 07:54:41 AM by JarheadAZ »
Not lookin' to be in a gunfight, but if you find yourself mixed up in one, it might be kinda nice to have a gun...

"Faint heart never filled a flush" - Brett Maverick

Good marksmanship is no accident - JarheadNY

brandyspaw

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2016, 08:25:24 PM »
I thought this recent article might be relevant to this thread.   http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/rethinking-scout-rifle/

I guess some would argue my take on the scout rifle isn't really following the true scout concept since I dislike the EER scopes.  I tend to agree with the gist of the article that a scout type rifle can be any powerful, multi-purpose rifle that's also a lightweight, compact and portable rifle.  How exactly its configured, or if its a bolt, or lever or whatever rifle is open to your own needs and interpretation.  I believe this is important as Colonel Cooper's scout rifle was a concept and I think his criteria for this concept were meant more as guidelines rather than being chiseled in stone.

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson

"Most of my money has gone for guns, cars and guitars.  The rest I just wasted."

JesseL

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2016, 09:17:57 AM »
I don't recall ever reading anything by Col Cooper that really said the EER scope was a critical aspect of the Scout concept.

He did say that a scout scope should be extremely durable, with adjustments built into the mount and the reticle etched into the glass. Can't recall that I've ever seen a Scout with such an arrangement though, including the Steyr that the Col loved.

I think that as long as it's something you can comfortably have with you all the time in the field, that you can shoot quickly, and that's capable of reliably  taking whatever you're likely to shoot out to as far as you can make good hits; then it's good to go.

Iocona

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2016, 11:37:17 AM »
   Here is a photo of my " Lever Scout"  Marlin 336 in 30-30.  I cut the barrel to 17 inches, plastic Ram-Line stock and fore end, red dot sight on a scout mount.  She currently wears a self inflicted San Tan Valley hillbilly paint job, and my first attempt at braiding a paracord sling.

brandyspaw

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2016, 12:35:02 PM »
I don't recall ever reading anything by Col Cooper that really said the EER scope was a critical aspect of the Scout concept.


Actually, Cooper originally considered the scout concept using ghost ring iron sights until the EER scopes became readily available. Once the EER scopes where commonplace the scout concept evolved to the criteria below.  Much of the guidelines were developed during the two separate Scout Rifles Conferences held at Gunsite in 1983 and 1984. The availability of the EER scopes allowed Cooper to utilize a scope and still keep his criteria of having open access to the action for stripper clip loading.

The Scout Rifle---An optimized general-purpose rifle designed by Jeff Cooper.
Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson

"Most of my money has gone for guns, cars and guitars.  The rest I just wasted."

fr3db3ar

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2016, 07:39:24 AM »
I wish the MVP patrol came in 243.

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JarheadAZ

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2016, 09:19:29 AM »
Well, looking at the MVP and the Mossberg Patriot rifles on their site, I get a suspicion that the MVP is built on the Patriot action.

Since the Patriot is offered in a 22" fluted barrel model, there probably exists at least a dim possibility that parts from the one could be mated to the other. The barrel nut may simplify this process.

Not a certainty, best I can come up with. A Mossberg authorized gunsmith may be able to get the required barrel to be fitted to a 308 MVP action.

Greg
Not lookin' to be in a gunfight, but if you find yourself mixed up in one, it might be kinda nice to have a gun...

"Faint heart never filled a flush" - Brett Maverick

Good marksmanship is no accident - JarheadNY

fr3db3ar

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2016, 12:48:52 PM »
But I like the 16" threaded barrel.  I'll stick with 223 for now and suppress it.

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JT

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2016, 03:32:23 PM »
I have the 20" MVP and I just ordered a Vortex Strike Eagle for it. The 1X eliminates the need for the forward scope and the 6X BDC does not overpower the range finding and BDC use. I have no intentions of shooting out to a 1000 yards. UTG makes a rear peep that will mount to the rear scope base and a front clamp on sight meant for the 10-22 that will fit the barrel if the scope is broken. Not pretty but workable in an emergency. Other wise it would not take much room or weight to keep a sighted in small red dot handy. The reasoning for the forward mount was to keep the action clear for reload and allowed both eyes open shooting. I agree with previous posts that newer technology has ended the need for the forward mount. Anyone need a slightly used scout scope?

RetroG

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2016, 09:59:12 AM »
What kind and how much?


JT

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2016, 07:26:45 AM »

JarheadAZ

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2017, 01:36:04 PM »
Some updates to this topic.

The MVP is now available in a 6.5CM chambering, just about perfecting it, IMHO, although I would still prefer a .260.

My Savage 10FCM Scout 7.62x39 has been rescoped back to the Tasco 2.5-10x42 MilDot version, and some load testing was done with HDY 110 V-Max utilizing an about-max load of IMR-4198. Accuracy was so good, I'm calling it PPC-like. I never though that little rifle could shoot so tight.

Load development continues, now with the HDY 110gr GMX solid copper plastic tipped boattail atop 26.5 gr of IMR-4198, just .1gr short of the Hornady max listed load. While I expect good accuracy, and maybe slightly better drop/range with it, I have yet to get out and really thrash the load. The load now used Hornady brass, which employs small rifle primer pockets.

As noted in earlier posts, I had heart attack about 3 weeks back. Cardiac testing continues, but there is some hope that heart damage may have been minimal. Consensus seems to be leaning toward this being a congestive heart failure event, rather than an Ischemic event. I feel a lot better than I had expected to feel a by now.

Greg
Not lookin' to be in a gunfight, but if you find yourself mixed up in one, it might be kinda nice to have a gun...

"Faint heart never filled a flush" - Brett Maverick

Good marksmanship is no accident - JarheadNY

brandyspaw

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2017, 06:49:52 PM »
Good to hear your health and your scout project are both making progress.  Actually, mostly that your're feeling better after that health scare.
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson

"Most of my money has gone for guns, cars and guitars.  The rest I just wasted."

coelacanth

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2017, 08:11:43 PM »
Agreed.  I was thinking that the 7.62x39 was only a so-so round in the accuracy department but I think I fell into the same trap as most people do - equating the round with the most prevalent weapons that fire it.  Out of your run-of-the mill AK or SKS even match grade ammo is only going to net you so much accuracy.  Out of a well set-up bolt gun its a whole 'nother thing entirely.   :thumbup
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. A lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 
                                       
     Robert A. Heinlein ,  Friday

Trident

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2017, 02:41:11 PM »
This thread was one of the best reads on any forum. Definite 10 best material. Thanks to everyone who shared.

JarheadAZ, I'm glad you're on the road to recovery.
Getting better one shot at a time...

JarheadAZ

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2017, 08:29:33 AM »
I am always reviewing my load development projects, and have just re-enacted a complete rereading of the available data on the 7.62x39 and the GMX line of bullets.

Logically, the GMX is described by Hornady as a more pressure prevalent bullet than the more common copper core bullets, and that development should start down a bit on the pressure curve compared to working with lead core bullets. Last week I fired 8 rounds of the 110gr GMX/26.5 gr IMR-4198 loads to attempt a basic zeroing and as a preliminary pressure testing regimen.

Examining the case heads (Hornady brass, small primer pockets with CCI BR-4's) for pressure signs, there are some moderate indications of what I would call a 'reasonable working pressure'. There are no indications of ejector swipes or shiny rings above the extraction groove (which might indicate incipient head separation potential). The primers exhibit moderate flattening with definite remaining roundness along the edges (no knife edges). There is no cratering around the firing pin indentation detectable by either eye or finger nail.

My appreciation is that this loading is effective and reasonable in this rifle (Savage 10FCP Scout), and that the listed max is probably conservative for the Savage, but may not be as conservative for the military firearms around which the 7.62x39 cartridge was originally developed. Accordingly, reasonable and customary caution is indicated when handloading for those rifles.

Keep in mind that the bullet is light-for-chambering, and also of .308" diameter running in a nominal .30 caliber bore that also possesses a 'choke' throat to accommodate '.303' nominal diameter bullets, and thus departs substantially from standard 7.62x39 usage.

The goal of this project is to develop a flatter shooting load for this specific bolt rifle that has game taking capability for medium sized game out to 150yd to 200yd.

I don't consider this to be a ballistic stretch, as I have been handloading for this chambering for over 20 years, and employed the basic (Norinco) Milsurp FMJ round in a Norinco SKS as an introduction to 300yd National Match that doubled as certified practice activity as required by DCM prior to purchasing my DCM Garand in the mid-1990's.

I am a (narrowly) published writer, from the 1990's in Precision Shooter, and had two articles appear in the inaugural issue of Tactical Shooter.

Greg
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 10:12:44 AM by JarheadAZ »
Not lookin' to be in a gunfight, but if you find yourself mixed up in one, it might be kinda nice to have a gun...

"Faint heart never filled a flush" - Brett Maverick

Good marksmanship is no accident - JarheadNY

coelacanth

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2017, 08:43:15 PM »
Well, I appreciate your insight and contribution to our mutual hobby.   :thumbup
"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. A lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot." 
                                       
     Robert A. Heinlein ,  Friday

armoredman

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2017, 04:31:24 AM »
I handicap myself in loading pretty much nothing but home cast powdercoated bullets in 7.62x39mm. :) I can still zing the steel 3/4 IDPA standing at 200 yards, which is about minute of coyote and certainly minute of felon. :D

This is an honestly better group from the load I'm using the most. Nothing for any real rifleman to post up, but it's what I can do with what's available locally. :) I have nobody who carries 3.11 bullets in town, BUT I have a Doe Run secondary smelter a few miles away, so casting with good certified bullet metal as far easier to pull off. :)



Someday I'll have to run into you and get the benefit of your extensive experience with this round. :)

Intel6

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2017, 08:12:56 AM »
Interesting discussion,  I also reload for and shoot 7.62x39 mostly in my CZ 527. I cast a few different bullets for it but I also mainly use the NOE mould armoredman uses. I also shoot a 150 is grain bullet quite a bit that is a regular spire point style. One other bullet I have started really messing with recently in 7.62x39 is a NOE mould that casts a bullet designed by "Ranch Dog" who likes throat filling bullets with decent metplats. It is shooting great so far and thumps the steel rather well also. You can see in the pic below it has a short body for the short neck of the 7.62x39 and puts a lot of the bullet mass outside the case and fills up the throat.  As you can see I am HiTek coating them (this one is Bronze 500) and gas checking them. 





armoredman

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Re: Mossberg MVP Predator 223 - Outscouting the Scout?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2017, 02:35:31 PM »
That one I have never seen, indeed. Only cast i have for this caliber is the 129gr NOE and the two Lees, the 155 and 160 TL. The Lees give decent results. Never tried HiTek coatings, just PC, TL and hard lube.