Non-lethal options

[StealthyMcStealth]

Most gun forums I read, including this one, focus on being prepared to defend yourself with your carry weapon or a gun in your home. But what if the threat you encounter is not dangerous enough to warrant lethal force? Do you really want to kill a guy because he kicked the door of your car and said he was going to kick your butt? Going to jail for something like that would suck big time.

Options include:

Removing yourself from the situation (drive away or run).
Taser
Pepper spray
Strobe flashlight to the eyes
Laser to the eyes
Hand-to-hand combat

Who has other thoughts or tactics?

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]

[FreeInAZ]

Bean bag shotgun to the groin? Sounds fair to me in above scenario

[FreeInAZ]

Seriously if someone is going to attack your car, then it's not hard to believe you'll be next. If you can escape do so, if not keep this in mind: many people have been beaten to death with nothing more than the attackers hands and feet. You want to go hand to hand with some Meth head or PCP wildman good on you, you bring knuckles to a gun fight you literally take your life in your own hands.

Back in MI a fellow pulled up to a busy intersection I knew well. Some career criminal riding a bicycle crashes into the front of his truck (crossed against signal) and tries to yank the driver out the window while beating him. The driver manages to get his pistol out and fires one shot killing the thug. Police ruling: justified shooting, no charges.

[6.5 Gunner]

You should always get away if you can, period. Better yet, if possible, avoid the situation all together. People are A-holes, if someone kicks your tire or spits on your windshield or your shoes just drive or walk away and cuss them out in your head. If you're at an establishment and get accosted in the parking lot, tell the manager a crazy person is harassing patrons. I guarantee they'll call the cops. To be completely honest I'm not a fan of non-lethal. If a threat warrants me to cause it pain: pepper spray it, electrocute it, or stab it, I feel that a firearm is not (shouldn't be) out of the question.

The FBI even agrees with the fact that most people who carry a gun and have to draw it don't even need to fire. Presenting the firearm with loud and clear verbal commands tends to win the day. Luckily, we live in a state that is more accustomed to the second amendment and the responsibility that comes with it.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I am not a lawyer.

[steve2md]

The only fight you'll ever win is the one you avoid getting in to. IMO, one should always try to bail first, even if you are "right". If you can't remove yourself from the situation, escalate as needed. Just remember, as a non professionally trained civilian, a less than lethal weapon can do quite a bit of damage that you can be held liable for.

[pmanton]

Years ago I was mugged while riding my bicycle to work at night. They drove up next to me and someone leaned out of the car and smashed a glass bottle over my head. I was wearing a helmet and avoided serious injury. there were 4 young men in the car. I drew my pistol and fired the first round into the ground.  I'm a military retiree and have been taught never fire a warning shot. However in this case it worked. You have never seen 4 punks jump back into a car that fast.

Paul
Salome, AZ

[FreeInAZ]

^ Good job Paul. They are lucky you're a kind man.

[JarheadAZ]

I would strongly advise taking an Arizona CCW course if you haven't already. Your questions are central to such courses.

I spoke with a representative of Second Amendment Family Gun Shop (Bisbee, AZ) while visiting Tombstone this past Thursday. http://411gun.com/listings/second-amendment-family-gunshop-bisbee-az/

My family and I will be taking our classes there soon. I don't carry yet, and I probably won't until I take this course. Just about anyone can pull a trigger, but understanding your legal position and the local history of concealed carry is absolutely essential, IMHO.

Another point that is essential to understand is that this is a public forum, and that public statements (especially in writing) of intention prior to an incident are admissible as evidence against a defendant in a self-defense shooting. Loose lips, etc...

Greg

[freeman1685]

Certainly, if there is another option, a less than lethal response is ideal.  But...  as has been noted, it is not always possible to know when that option is available, or that it'll work.  For a private citizen, it is usually more practical to at least threaten deadly force.

For myself, I really don't want someone coming that close to me.  Even OC spray let's them get too close.

[870policemag]

Skip to the 2:30 mark.

[RetroG]

Lasers to the eyes can cause or be construed to cause permanent vision damage, and can fall underneath intentional maiming.

Likewise, remember it is Taser first, then OC.  Why?  Because the carrier for the OC is typically alcohol, and the sparks from the Taser have been known to ignite them (this info is from a friend who is a LEO who was warned by one or the other of the manufacturers).

Less lethal is the actual term for these items.  Think about that for a moment.  What it means is that these things are LESS LIKELY to result in death than a firearm.  There have been a number of people who have died after being tased because they had a bad heart or were on drugs.  I personally know of a person who has a severe allergic reaction to capsasin, the active ingredient in OC spray (sucks because she is a chef).  Hand to hand combat is actually deadly force, ask any martial arts instructor or police officer.  It is sadly easier to kill someone with your hands than just disable them.

Best bet is to get out of there.  If you can't avoid or evade, then decide if this is a deadly force threat or not.  If not, then you can't use a gun or knife or more force than the other guy. 

Personally I carry a handgun where I can, a knife where I can, and OC spray where I can.  I studied martial arts for years, and could probably discourage an attacker, but one or both of us is going to be hurt for a long time (getting old sucks).

[freeman1685]

The way I see it, if I can't avoid or evade, which is likely in my case, I have the disparity of force, or force +1 defense to fall back on.  I don't carry a taser, or OC.  Though I do carry a set of keys with a big brass clip, and a leather thong as a handle to use as a flail.  But as I've said in the past, that's bad breath distance, and I'd rather avoid letting the CHUD get that close.

[coelacanth]

Well said.   

[FreeInAZ]

+1

"Best block: no be there". - Mr. Miyagi (of the Karate Kid fame)

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" or "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War (version depends on translation)

Well said. Not to mention that you're probably more likely to avoid prosecution if witnesses describe how you tried everything you could to leave the area or deescalate the situation and the bad guy(s) left you with no other option.

Then again, that should apply whether defensive arms are involved or not. I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt who said one should hold back as long as honourably possible... and never hit soft.

+2

[armoredman]

Something else to keep in mind - OC is a an area effect chemical agent. Having dealt with chemical agents for years, I can tell you if you light of a can of gas in your car, you are hosed unless you are wearing a full face gas mask. If you are using some of the really good stuff like Phantom, it's gonna clean your clock right out too, and if the attacker has friends who weren't in the blast zone, well, they now have you, helpless, to play with. Good for many things, but understand the limitations.
Civilian Taser is meant to be fired and dropped, IIRC, cycles continuously for 30 seconds, your "run away" time. It is a one shot weapon. Some of the modern LE Tasers have dual cartridges, but most civilian models, as far as I know, do not.
Yes, we changed our gas once due to that chestnut about the Florida inmate who was ignited through a petroleum based propellant in the aerosol spray and Taser, but I never read anything actual on it. Most OC nowadays is inert propellant because of that. Phantom is for certain - just read my can, "electronic immobilization device compatible". That stuff is so foul I call it the Devil's Farts.
Just some FYI's.

[Trident]

Most gun forums I read, including this one, focus on being prepared to defend yourself with your carry weapon or a gun in your home. But what if the threat you encounter is not dangerous enough to warrant lethal force? Do you really want to kill a guy because he kicked the door of your car and said he was going to kick your butt? Going to jail for something like that would suck big time.

Options include:

Removing yourself from the situation (drive away or run).
Taser
Pepper spray
Strobe flashlight to the eyes
Laser to the eyes
Hand-to-hand combat

Who has other thoughts or tactics?

Not exactly inline with your fight or flight options, but I carry a second wallet. If I am accosted I will give them my actual wallet, while retaining my second wallet.

My actual wallet contains my driver's license, credit cards, insurance cards and cash. (usually $100 or less).  Nothing I can't replace in a few hours except for the cash.

My second wallet contains my ATM card (I don't want to be taken hostage to visit ATMs and drain my account), my CCWs (I don't want to show my hand), a credit card and cash (to get home).

If my gun comes out of the holster it's likely to cost me much more time and money. If I have to use it, I will likely be subject to a civil suit, even if the police investigation deems it justified. As a result, I have a $100K threshold on presenting my firearm, the likely cost of attorney fees and lost sleep. Someone assaulting or threatening me or someone else with deadly force or attempting to take me hostage exceeds that.

De-escalation, is the best defense if it can be achieved.

[FreeInAZ]

Not exactly inline with your fight or flight options, but I carry a second wallet. If I am accosted I will give them my actual wallet, while retaining my second wallet.

My actual wallet contains my driver's license, credit cards, insurance cards and cash. (usually $100 or less).  Nothing I can't replace in a few hours except for the cash.

My second wallet contains my ATM card (I don't want to be taken hostage to visit ATMs and drain my account), my CCWs (I don't want to show my hand), a credit card and cash (to get home).

If my gun comes out of the holster it's likely to cost me much more time and money. If I have to use it, I will likely be subject to a civil suit, even if the police investigation deems it justified. As a result, I have a $100K threshold on presenting my firearm, the likely cost of attorney fees and lost sleep. Someone assaulting or threatening me or someone else with deadly force or attempting to take me hostage exceeds that.

De-escalation, is the best defense if it can be achieved.

Not making light of your post, where do you expect to find such polite robbers/muggers that they won't go over your person in detail? In Detroit mugging victims are often found walking down the street in their boxer shorts and nothing else...

Why? Robbers know people try to hide the good stuff. Criminals are lazy, but don't count on them all being stupid or as polite as this guy

[Trident]

Not making light of your post, where do you expect to find such polite robbers/muggers that they won't go over your person in detail? In Detroit mugging victims are often found walking down the street in their boxer shorts and nothing else...

Why? Robbers know people try to hide the good stuff. Criminals are lazy, but don't count on them all being stupid or as polite as this guy

No worries, in the unfortunate event that someone forces me into having to respond, I don't expect 100% success with attempting to de-escalate, nor with any method non-lethal or otherwise.

I always carry and know my split time from buzzer with hands-up and my first center mass hit is sub-second from retention.  When paired with distraction that's plan B...

[freeman1685]

Not exactly inline with your fight or flight options, but I carry a second wallet. If I am accosted I will give them my actual wallet, while retaining my second wallet.

My actual wallet contains my driver's license, credit cards, insurance cards and cash. (usually $100 or less).  Nothing I can't replace in a few hours except for the cash.

My second wallet contains my ATM card (I don't want to be taken hostage to visit ATMs and drain my account), my CCWs (I don't want to show my hand), a credit card and cash (to get home).

If my gun comes out of the holster it's likely to cost me much more time and money. If I have to use it, I will likely be subject to a civil suit, even if the police investigation deems it justified. As a result, I have a $100K threshold on presenting my firearm, the likely cost of attorney fees and lost sleep. Someone assaulting or threatening me or someone else with deadly force or attempting to take me hostage exceeds that.

De-escalation, is the best defense if it can be achieved.

Not so, sir.  Arizona has a statute geared to protecting folks from just that consequence.

13-413. No civil liability for justified conduct

No person in this state shall be subject to civil liability for engaging in conduct otherwise justified pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.

Something to keep in mind, should you find yourself the target of civil litigation after justifiably defending yourself with deadly force.

[Trident]

Not so, sir.  Arizona has a statute geared to protecting folks from just that consequence.

Something to keep in mind, should you find yourself the target of civil litigation after justifiably defending yourself with deadly force.

Thank you sir. As an escapee from litigious leftwing CA, that's a breath of fresh air.

[freeman1685]

No problemo, amigo.   

Arizona is probably one of the most 2A friendly states in the country, considerably more so than Kommiefornistan.

[coyotesfan97]

I like Sabre products. They are inert propellants. If the can says nonflammable it'll probably ignite. My test is a lit road flare and a direct spray to the flame. You'll know if it is inert or not! FIRE 🔥 FIRE 🔥 FIRE!

[LuckyLeaky]

For some odd reason I just got a mental image of you standing on the side of the road at an incident doing that...with your dog staring doing the head tilt

[PCHS4]

Nike shoes and always scoping out where the back door is located. Someone comes in the restaurant or store for a holdup and I make like Usain Bolt.

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]