Avoiding the Fatal Funnels

[azqkr]

Can anyone who isn't ex LE or Mil describe what fatal funnels are and why you would want to avoid them?

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]

[coyotesfan97]

Or why you actively plug them...

[azqkr]

 

[FreeInAZ]

This is a some what modern take on the fatal funnel theory. Worth watching IMHO. This said, room clearing is something most civilians want to avoid if possible. You as a non LEO (about every 329 of us to their 1) don't want to go bopping about the house for multiple reasons *if it can be avoided*. Your best bet at staying alive in a home defense situation is to take the best defensive position you can and have police dispatch on the phone and letting them know where you are exactly. This hopefully will keep you from being shot by police and also keep them from being killed by you accidentally.

[Chuck]

FreeInAz, just recently completed a Home Defense Class, your input is almost the exact words of the instructor.

[FreeInAZ]

FreeInAz, just recently completed a Home Defense Class, your input is almost the exact words of the instructor.

Thanks Chuck. It's just common sense.  The less moving parts you have in the equation for the police, the better in my honest opinion.

If you do have to move...a second person on a cell with dispatch is a God send.  It sounds a bit goofy, but just as a family or couple would practice for a fire with a drill, a HD drill is a thing that can benefit you greatly IMHO.

[azqkr]

What if you have to secure kids in rooms down the hall, on another floor? Still going to hunker down till the cav arrives? I'm sure there's at least some here who would have to move through fatal funnels to scoop the kids up to safety.

Not so much room clearing BG's but having to move through funnels to get others to a safe room.

[armoredman]

Warning -attempting to stick your head through this funnel could be fatal.

[Chuck]

 

[ynotaz]

What if you have to secure kids in rooms down the hall, on another floor? Still going to hunker down till the cav arrives? I'm sure there's at least some here who would have to move through fatal funnels to scoop the kids up to safety.

Not so much room clearing BG's but having to move through funnels to get others to a safe room.

Interesting discussion but way too many variables.   

Day or night, door kicked in with noise or door left open and screen cut silently…..

Example, I know my house, a BG doesn’t.  I am the one that establishes fatal funnels or a term I like better deadly corners. 

From simple familiarity, I can navigate my house in absolute darkness based on habit and small ques like LED on a cell phone charger, display on electronic thermostat, LEDs from other electronic devices that do no light a path but give me ques to a location where I know I am 2’ into a 3’ wide hallway and within 2’ of a bathroom door.  This also helps if I have to take a leak in the middle of the night without waking the wife.

That circumstance is a totally different scenario from clearing an unfamiliar building or one where I have a drawing of the floor plan that may or may not be accurate.

[azqkr]

Interesting discussion but way too many variables.   

Day or night, door kicked in with noise or door left open and screen cut silently…..

Example, I know my house, a BG doesn’t.  I am the one that establishes fatal funnels or a term I like better deadly corners. 

From simple familiarity, I can navigate my house in absolute darkness based on habit and small ques like LED on a cell phone charger, display on electronic thermostat, LEDs from other electronic devices that do no light a path but give me ques to a location where I know I am 2’ into a 3’ wide hallway and within 2’ of a bathroom door.  This also helps if I have to take a leak in the middle of the night without waking the wife.

That circumstance is a totally different scenario from clearing an unfamiliar building or one where I have a drawing of the floor plan that may or may not be accurate.

I won't need a light in my home to begin with. There's nightlights throughout the house for nav and ID'ing intruders. The light I might take on the hunt for a strange noise would be used to blind the person I can readily see at 3am anywhere in the home. Take his n/v from him with the cone of light if used at all.

[FreeInAZ]

I won't need a light in my home to begin with. There's nightlights throughout the house for nav and ID'ing intruders. The light I might take on the hunt for a strange noise would be used to blind the person I can readily see at 3am anywhere in the home. Take his n/v from him with the cone of light if used at all.

This is a valid concept in my experience.  It should be noted that you too (only minor compared to bad guy) will sacrifice some N.V. There is also the concept of back wash with powful lights. Meaning if you are engaged with more than one person and they are not where the focus of your light is, they now have your exact location, and may very well be able to see you clearly.  This is why a stable defensive position is recommend in home defense situations. Let the bad guy(s) come to you. Move only if you don't have any better options.

You break into my house in the wee hours of the night...hey good for you ...you can have anything not near my families sleeping position. You cross that line, you'll pay dearly for every inch you tread afterwards.

[coyotesfan97]

I have four legged friends who have natural night vision with better ears and noses. You’d have to literally be a ninja to get in without the pack firing up.

[FreeInAZ]

I have four legged friends who have natural night vision with better ears and noses. You’d have to literally be a ninja to get in without the pack firing up.

Oh boy! I pity the fool that makes that mistake at your house in the night. Look pals...its a human chew toy...yummy

[azqkr]

This is a valid concept in my experience.  It should be noted that you too (only minor compared to bad guy) will sacrifice some N.V. There is also the concept of back wash with powful lights. Meaning if you are engaged with more than one person and they are not where the focus of your light is, they now have your exact location, and may very well be able to see you clearly.  This is why a stable defensive position is recommend in home defense situations. Let the bad guy(s) come to you. Move only if you don't have any better options.

You break into my house in the wee hours of the night...hey good for you ...you can have anything not near my families sleeping position. You cross that line, you'll pay dearly for every inch you tread afterwards.

The backwash is only a concern in the bathrooms. The rest of the rooms don't exhibit any backwash even on 300 lumens. The main HI beam is 3 feet wide at 15 feet [ entering a bedroom ] where the outer lit area covers 15 feet at the same distance. In the open living room area the HI covers 4.5 feet while the softer out lit area covers 21 feet [ the full width of the room from the beginning of the hall ]. The lights I use are designed with a HI small far reaching beam and the softer wider beam extending quite a distance from the main beam.

The HI center beam reaches 50 yrds to ID people outside, and gives a wide softer beam covering quite a distance in all directions. The walls in the house aren't white, but a medium beige and satin, not gloss [ where gloss would be more suspect of back washing ].

I wouldn't need the 300 lumen setting in the house, just the 15 lumen first choice on the switch, which avoids backwash altogether. Low 15 lumen on that light is 45 hours, 300 HI setting is 2 hours with 2 cr123a's. I also recommend people not search but hunker down unless they need to get to family members. But I don't follow my own advice to others based on the professional background, training and experience in search skills. It'll be slow and deliberate, but I'm not about to sit still while someone is in the house myself .

[FreeInAZ]

The backwash is only a concern in the bathrooms. The rest of the rooms don't exhibit any backwash even on 300 lumens. The main HI beam is 3 feet wide at 15 feet [ entering a bedroom ] where the outer lit area covers 15 feet at the same distance. In the open living room area the HI covers 4.5 feet while the softer out lit area covers 21 feet [ the full width of the room from the beginning of the hall ]. The lights I use are designed with a HI small far reaching beam and the softer wider beam extending quite a distance from the main beam.

The HI center beam reaches 50 yrds to ID people outside, and gives a wide softer beam covering quite a distance in all directions. The walls in the house aren't white, but a medium beige and satin, not gloss [ where gloss would be more suspect of back washing ].

I wouldn't need the 300 lumen setting in the house, just the 15 lumen first choice on the switch, which avoids backwash altogether. Low 15 lumen on that light is 45 hours, 300 HI setting is 2 hours with 2 cr123a's. I also recommend people not search but hunker down unless they need to get to family members. But I don't follow my own advice to others based on the professional background, training and experience in search skills. It'll be slow and deliberate, but I'm not about to sit still while someone is in the house myself .

You have some advantages most here do not Training, professional courtesy often afforded former Leo's by current LEA's etc..etc.. so it makes sense for you to feel a level of comfort in moving. That's cool. Your home environment maybe much different than others here too? Many have smaller children or elderly dependants (in my case both). I don't care what the bad guys do on one side of the house ...have a party for all I care, take a dip in the pool, but you cross over into no man's land you'll wish you hadn't. The older I get I find the more treacherous I've  become. A man's got to know his limitations. Mine are few currently.

I'm not saying to never move, that may be your best chance in a fluid situation? Only you can call the ball at that point in the game? If I lived by myself (as I did many years ago) in a cinder block home with steel framed everything and neighbors far away, then I might be willing to go sweeping...but I'd need a demo crew after I did.

Good points on the lights. I'm amazed at folks who buy SUPER bright lights, and never actually try using them in the confines of their home... Just like any other tool, you need to practice to use them effectively when the chips are down and also to know what works best in your particular home?

I'm not preaching - I've made my fair share of poor equipment choices. Practice weeds them out quickly.

It would be fantastic to see "real world" based  training courses come to this area that focused on home defense situations in addition to the typical hand gun/shotgun/rifle classes that are currently being taught.

Back east some of the local PDs would allow citizens to use their range facilities with vetting and supervision. I hope to see that in AZ soon. Dynamic shooting scenarios are a fantastic tool IMHO. There are some private simulators that citizens can use locally. Shooting well is a good start, knowing when to shoot is also important IMHO.

[azqkr]

knowing when to shoot is also important IMHO.

Always enjoyed the time spent on the FATS system scenarios over the years. The units are expensive, 50K+ presently. A few years back I looked into opening a brick and mortar with two of them and offering them to the general public for just such training. They can be taken on the road and approaching PD's without them was on the plate menu also.

[FreeInAZ]

knowing when to shoot is also important IMHO.

Always enjoyed the time spent on the FATS system scenarios over the years. The units are expensive, 50K+ presently. A few years back I looked into opening a brick and mortar with two of them and offering them to the general public for just such training. They can be taken on the road and approaching PD's without them was on the plate menu also.

[coyotesfan97]

I’d play the angles and make them come to me. The angles are your friend. Your castle your angles. 

[LuckyLeaky]

I have four legged friends who have natural night vision with better ears and noses. You’d have to literally be a ninja to get in without the pack firing up.

This made me lol... be a stupid mother effer to break into your house.. lotus would ring the dinner bell....
Speaking of which, you guys competing this year??

[ynotaz]

knowing when to shoot is also important IMHO.

Always enjoyed the time spent on the FATS system scenarios over the years. The units are expensive, 50K+ presently. A few years back I looked into opening a brick and mortar with two of them and offering them to the general public for just such training. They can be taken on the road and approaching PD's without them was on the plate menu also.

If you don't have access to current FATS systems, which I no longer have, you might enjoy a visit to Modern Round in Peoria.  They have computer controlled systems using "realistic" laser firearms.  They have a full selection of games and realistic police or military scenario videos.  The videos have  varying content so the guy pulling the gun sometimes pulls out a cell phone or a guy that's hit still shoots from where he was knocked down and not incapacitated.  I've gone often and find that several of the games are great for shoot/don't shoot practice. 

Unfortunately, "I've shot the sheriff" all too often in one of the games and never accomplished a perfect score in the military or PD live actions scenarios.

I also learned that my wife is horrible with iron sights but using a laser improves to 95% shot placement.  It seems that keeping a red dot on target is much more intuitive to her than sights and trigger control for rapid shots so one of my accessible pistols at home has acquired a laser.   

 

[Chuck]

FreeInAz;........You have some advantages most here do not Training, professional courtesy often afforded former Leo's by current LEA's etc..etc.

How would the responding police officcer(s) know whether or not he was an ex-police officer. From my limited knowledge of local law enforcement the ex police officer(s) should never have never been in law enforcement to start with and should be treated as any other tax paying citizen.

[FreeInAZ]

How would the responding police officcer(s) know whether or not he was an ex-police officer. From my limited knowledge of local law enforcement the ex police officer(s) should never have never been in law enforcement to start with and should be treated as any other tax paying citizen.

Chuck - I was speaking in the event of a HD/SD shooting. Cops speak their own language/dialect and key in quickly on it. He may be given a little more leeway than the average Joe if he's retired or a current officer. As to your how would they know question... if the person in question didn't divulge it.. L.E.I.N. Law Enforcement Inquery Network  ... if you ever even talked with a cop and he/she ran you for whatever reason...its in LEIN FOREVER...

[coyotesfan97]

This made me lol... be a stupid mother effer to break into your house.. lotus would ring the dinner bell....
Speaking of which, you guys competing this year??

Probably not he’ll be 9 and 1/2 then. Trials are hard on dogs.

[LuckyLeaky]

I’m kind of at a loss for the light portion of this.. I thinking using a bright light would be good for blinding any bad guy that might be lurking. With that being said, I would assume that walking around the house doing a seeep with the light on would be a bad choice because not only are you giving away your position, your eyes have now become dependant if focusing only on the light path..
I would use a bright light but I would utilize it WHEN I needed it (think on to check location, off to continue the sweep) doing this would allow you to momentarily blind an intruder to reposition and help dictate what force to be used...

[ArizonaGunOwners.com]