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Author Topic: Ammo Shortage  (Read 11897 times)

Marx-ism's

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Re: Ammo Shortage
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 02:02:47 pm »
The conceptual challenge I have with the claim that Americans have, in general, poor fire discipline is not that I disagree with the claim (I don't disagree with the claim) but I think the reason for the claim is actually due (in part) to a lack of effective training. In my opinion, I'd likely point my old and rather pudgy finger at basic training.  When I went through basic there was less emphasis on effectively hitting the target with the fewest possible rounds and more focus on simply hitting the target.

Now some might say that may have been an Air Force thing but I really don't think so. I've talked to too many guys over the years who've told me similar stories about Army, Navy, and Marine Corps boot camp. Given that I've never spent day 1 in Army, Navy, or Marine Corps boot camp I may well be talking out my a$$. That said I don't know any reason why any of these guys would have lied to me.

Another thing that I think contributes to the problem has historically been Hollyweird.  Why Hollyweird?  My military career started in the late 1970's/early 1980's.  In Hollyweird action movies of the era, the predominant shooting style in action movies was "spray and pray". There were literally dozens of movies during that era where someone picked up an UZI, a MAC-10, or even a more traditional firearm and started unloading it at their adversary from the hip. Aside from the unlimited capacity magazines those Hollyweird firearms seemed to have, it was always amazing how accurate those fictional characters in the movies seemed to be.  Well I've only seen two guys in my life who could shoot even marginally accurately from the hip, one was a Marine First Sergeant I knew when I was a ROTC cadet and the other is current competitive shooter Taran Butler.
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    RJ

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 05:01:43 pm »
    is this just a disparaging rant against military training or personal experience, or just a conversation piece to get something started.

    I was'nt in the AF, but was a grunt, and did know how to shoot and shoot well before going in, and well, i got even better due to the training and one thing you learn especially from a combat vet is, you don't spray and pray unless you are in a 6by with a couple loaders and a trailer of ammo.
    in the field you carry what you need and avoid a prolonged fire fight, but sometimes it just didn't work out that way, and not sure where you get off claiming its otherwise, just because someone said yada yada yada. of course this could be my rant, i guess not very accomplished shooters would comment on others training. hehe, see if that gets some comments underway.
    hey i'm just the devils advocate on most things, nothing personal :whistle
    Rj

    DClayton

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 05:56:52 pm »
    First few outings in Afghanistan I carried 5, 30 rounders +1 in the gun. At the end of the tour I was carrying 10 +1. Dropped the equivalent weight in less used kit. Food and water were less important than bullets. I was involved in several contacts that lasted 4 hours+ and lots of guys were on their last mags which wasn’t great.

    Can confirm that the modern US mantra is to pour as much lead onto the hostile area as you can, as fast as you can. Saw it first hand. And after they’d finish the 30 seconds of suppressing fire, we would actually try and hit something  :whistle :rotfl

    Marx-ism's

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 07:14:51 pm »
    is this just a disparaging rant against military training or personal experience, or just a conversation piece to get something started.

    I was'nt in the AF, but was a grunt, and did know how to shoot and shoot well before going in, and well, i got even better due to the training and one thing you learn especially from a combat vet is, you don't spray and pray unless you are in a 6by with a couple loaders and a trailer of ammo.
    in the field you carry what you need and avoid a prolonged fire fight, but sometimes it just didn't work out that way, and not sure where you get off claiming its otherwise, just because someone said yada yada yada. of course this could be my rant, i guess not very accomplished shooters would comment on others training. hehe, see if that gets some comments underway.
    hey i'm just the devils advocate on most things, nothing personal :whistle
    Rj

    Nah, it was an observation.

    Maybe it's me but I suspect part of you is stirring the pot.  :-P

    I stated that my observation of basic training was that it was somewhat lacking in terms of shooting and trigger discipline.  I stand by that observation whether anyone agree's with it or not. I believe that firearms training in the military, particularly the Air Force, should have been better and that others over the years have made similar observations.

    Speaking for myself, I have minimal issues hitting what I want to hit at short range. Long ranges, on the other hand, regularly kick my a$$. They always have. Why? Because I never got much training on the right way to calculate windage. I got through training thanks both to luck and Kentucky windage because Zoomies aren't Grunts and they didn't think we needed to be expert marksmen.

    Want another example? Forty years ago we had to do push ups, chin ups, run, and march till our feet felt like they were ready to fall off. While I'm sure it wasn't anything nearly as strenuous as what other services required, there were some days where it kicked my then-20 year old a$$  Nowadays, AF basic training allows some training requirements to be bypassed so we don't place too high a burden on "some" recruits. I've read that the other services have also adjusted down some of their minimum standards in a similar fashion.

    I don't speak for anyone but myself when I say that I think that's a load of crap. If I'm out in the field, under enemy fire, and catch a round, I want someone with me who can haul my a$$ out of harms way BEFORE I bleed out. If the roles were reversed I'd be busting my a$$ to try to insure that they were out of the line of fire.

    My belief is that in a fire fight the expectation ought to be simple. Leave the damn rifle on semi-auto and shoot like you've got a clue. If you burn through the ammo that you humped in within 5 minutes then we've got a problem. Conversely, if you spend 5 minutes trying to accurately line up your sights we've got a problem. But then again that's why I think trigger discipline could and should be better. Ammo don't grow on trees.......

    Now, on the other hand, if someone has got usable ammo growing on tree's and wants to drop about 20,000 rounds on my door step, I'd be quite happy to cache most of it and use the rest to try to suck less at long range shooting.  :rotfl
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

    s3nfo

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 07:19:52 pm »
    It's called suppressing fire, not meant to be one bullet, one bad guy, it's meant to keep the bad guys heads down while the good guys maneuver for the one bullet, one bad guy position.

    JarheadAZ

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #30 on: August 25, 2020, 07:42:02 am »
    I think the observation is accurate and relevant. IMHO, it's based on the Fire and Maneuver Infantry Doctrines that came out of WWII, and the Military Musketry doctrines that were prevalent in the Revolution and Napoleonic Wars. The trigger word here is suppressing fire.

    The infantry rifle and ammunition has a degree of inaccuracy built into it; or rather, less accuracy built into it. This is about providing massed fire that suppresses incoming fire on an advancing unit. Attrition warfare is about reducing the emplaced enemy down to numbers which can be overcome by direct assault. Massed fire is directed at a visible object that inhabits the center of an emplaced troop aggregation.

    The assault force is divided into two groups, one of which provides suppressing fire, and the other which takes advantage of that suppression and moves closer to the emplaced enemy. Once the advancing group finds cover, the roles reverse, and that group provides suppressing fire so the lagging group can catch up and overtake the initial advancing group.

    Once the objective has been contained, and the opposing numbers have been reduced, the final assault phase is employed.

    The built in inaccuracy is a psychological issue; a factor that randomizes the risk to the targeted enemy force. It's value is that the besieged force cannot move under the incoming fire because the very randomness of that fire makes any path they might choose to escape along a matter of chance. More accurate fire can be deduced, and some hope can exist that it can be avoided; but the random flurry of incoming fire denies the pinned force that opportunity.

    The concept depends on the employment of groups against groups; and individual marksmanship is good, but not the main point.

    For this role, the Designated Marksman, or Sniper is employed. The DM or Sniper's target is high value targets; leaders, crewed weapons operators, and the like.

    The assault group reduces the overall objective force, while the advanced marksman dismantles the command and support structure.

    It is based on the principle of the four F's. Find 'em, Fix 'em (in place), Fight 'em, Finish 'em.

    This will have some bearing on all the Armed Forces' basic training, in that the operation and employment of the basic infantry implement on a gross level has to be a universal individual soldier skill. But the infantry forces are the ones who get the fire and maneuver training because that's integral to their unit mission, and better general basic marksmanship is important to that mission.

    Therefore, we see more emphasis on that in the training of the assault forces; i.e. Army and Marines. DM and Sniper candidates are those who have stood out in many skills during those initial phases of indoctrination.

    A typical USMC Sniper School Candidate will be in their second enlistment, hold at least an E-4 rank, and be especially astute in observation, scouting, and land navigation skills. Marksmanship also needs to be significantly above average, but all of these skills and leadership will become far more highly honed during Scout Sniper training. There are no quotas in USMC Scout Sniper School; you excel, or you're out.

    Greg
    « Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 08:12:59 am by JarheadAZ »
    Not lookin' to be in a gunfight, but if you find yourself mixed up in one, it might be kinda nice to have a gun...

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    SP0One

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #31 on: September 05, 2020, 10:12:14 am »
    Obviously now isn't the time to stock up a large pile but I highly recommend ammoseek website for cheap bulk purchases. It searches all online sources and you can filter by case type or shipping price which makes it easy to see who's the most affordable. On a side note still finding 22LR at Walmart quite often. I don't clean them out just get a box or two when I go but paid 16 bucks for 325 rounds of federal.

    grayland

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #32 on: September 06, 2020, 09:30:46 am »
    I have a S&W Shield 380EZ on the way for my wife.  (very weak wrists and can't rack anything else :-))

    But.....no 380 ammo.  I never had a need for it before and did not have any on hand before the SHTF on ammo.  Won't be able to give it a workout. :shocked

    Long shot...does anyone have a box sitting around that they won't be  using?
    Willing, of course, to pay the current over the top price if available.

    Thanks.
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    DClayton

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #33 on: September 06, 2020, 09:36:04 am »
    Mmp guns in Phoenix has a load of ammo. They’ve got purchase limits now but their prices aren’t that insane. Yet

    grayland

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #34 on: September 06, 2020, 11:52:33 am »
    Mmp guns in Phoenix has a load of ammo. They’ve got purchase limits now but their prices aren’t that insane. Yet

    Thanks..trying to check it out now.
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    Starguco

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #35 on: September 06, 2020, 03:51:26 pm »
    Cal ranch in Sierra vista has plenty of  380
    There is no such thing as Overkill. Die Lehrer Klaus Horstkamp.

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    grayland

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #36 on: September 06, 2020, 06:16:57 pm »
    Cal ranch in Sierra vista has plenty of  380

    Thanks for the heads up.

    I called them this afternoon and they only have Sig Sauer 380 V Crown defense ammo.  $44.99 for a box of 20.   :shocked
    Kind of tough to target shoot with that.... :-(

    I think I better call them again tomorrow..I may have misunderstood.  :whistle

    Thanks again Starguco for the input. 
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    Starguco

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #37 on: September 06, 2020, 06:46:36 pm »
    Thanks for the heads up.

    I called them this afternoon and they only have Sig Sauer 380 V Crown defense ammo.  $44.99 for a box of 20.   :shocked
    Kind of tough to target shoot with that.... :-(

    I think I better call them again tomorrow..I may have misunderstood.  :whistle

    Thanks again Starguco for the input.
    I think so. I think to the left of that on the shelf they have target ammo. That was to the right on the bottom shelf. Sending PM
    There is no such thing as Overkill. Die Lehrer Klaus Horstkamp.

    "We must reject the idea every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each indiviual is accountable for his actions." Ronald Reagan

    SP0One

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #38 on: September 07, 2020, 05:57:46 pm »
    Wow 380 acp online is $1.2 per round for steel case. That's just ludacris! I thought $0.60 around for 9 mm was bad.. Even 10mm is 49 cents a round. I imagine a lot of new gun owners went 9 mm and 380 auto.

    Woodenword

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #39 on: September 07, 2020, 09:17:57 pm »
    Well, I’ll admit I’ve got caught pretty flat footed in all this. I thought things would calm down after the pandemic panic started, but then the rioting started. I usually mail order ammo for when I get back in AZ to shoot matches.  Right now I think I’ve got about 1500 rounds of 9mm stashed at my son’s house, but that won’t  last long using 70 round drums in a machine gun.  I actually contemplated purchasing some at 4 times the price I normally pay, but couldn’t do it. Hopefully things will calm down by the end of November, but I doubt it.


    SP0One

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #40 on: September 08, 2020, 08:38:54 am »
    I'm sure another factor of ammo shortage although I hate to admit it is that Walmart quit selling 9 mm, 380, and 223 etc. Zero lives will be saved in their BS political show but it used to be a consistent place to get cheap ammo. Although under the current circumstances it might be more of a manufacturing problem than a distribution problem. I'm sure all of this will quiet down after the election it just sucks until then... I have a feeling there will be a lot of half-price guns on the used market as well that have never been fired...

    870policemag

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #41 on: September 08, 2020, 10:39:16 am »
    I can sell you a couple 50 rnd boxes of PMC .380 brass cased ammo for $35.99 a piece.
    Bullets are the only things that do their job only after they're fired.

    JT

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #42 on: September 08, 2020, 02:42:49 pm »
    I'm sure another factor of ammo shortage although I hate to admit it is that Walmart quit selling 9 mm, 380, and 223 etc. Zero lives will be saved in their BS political show but it used to be a consistent place to get cheap ammo. Although under the current circumstances it might be more of a manufacturing problem than a distribution problem. I'm sure all of this will quiet down after the election it just sucks until then... I have a feeling there will be a lot of half-price guns on the used market as well that have never been fired...
    I heard they were going stop selling auto parts to help reduce traffic accidents. :whistle Maybe they should quit selling food to cut down on fat people.
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    Clifffalling

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #43 on: September 08, 2020, 07:55:32 pm »
    Wow 380 acp online is $1.2 per round for steel case. That's just ludacris! I thought $0.60 around for 9 mm was bad.. Even 10mm is 49 cents a round. I imagine a lot of new gun owners went 9 mm and 380 auto.

    I just saw 10mm in Sportos yesterday. They had a whole rack of blazer 180 grn 50 rnd boxes for $19.99. If they still have some tmw, i may buy a bunch. Hell, at that price it's worth it for the brass alone.
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    Woodenword

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #44 on: September 09, 2020, 04:48:28 pm »
    Well I got somewhat lucky today!  Happen to be in Scheels in Rapid City, SD, just as a guy was restocking a shelf with some 9mm. No limit, so I took all 15 boxes of Aguila 147 grain for $16 a box. Not as good a deal as I would have liked, but less than I was willing to pay.

    Clifffalling

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #45 on: September 09, 2020, 06:01:36 pm »
    No...   This is ludacris.

    Sorry - I couldn't resist.

    But yes is is ludicrous.  It is what drove me out of 32ACP, 380, kept me out of .45 and may soon kill off my love for all things .357.  I just refuse to keep guns that I can't enjoy shooting because I see dollar signs going down the barrel.  Especially for the amount of impact / energy those rounds have.

    I don't think anyone is bitching about $7.50 a round for 50 BMG because it stops anything with 6 or less wheels in the Eastern Hemisphere but when you have to pawn your least favorite kid to feed a 380, it's getting ridiculous.

    .50 BMG can be had for 4$ a round. It has not really gone up too much.  Strange.
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    5632

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #46 on: September 09, 2020, 06:25:05 pm »
    Well I got somewhat lucky today!  Happen to be in Scheels in Rapid City, SD, just as a guy was restocking a shelf with some 9mm. No limit, so I took all 15 boxes of Aguila 147 grain for $16 a box. Not as good a deal as I would have liked, but less than I was willing to pay.
    Congratulations.  A good deal now is not what you pay for it, it is if you find what you want.

    Clifffalling

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #47 on: September 09, 2020, 06:50:16 pm »
    True story, i just ordered 1000 124 grn HP 9mm component bullets from Rocky Mtn Reloading for 102$. First i have found in stock for a couple months.  Still searching for 55 grn JSP .224... less than 10c per...may be dreaming
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    JK357

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #48 on: September 09, 2020, 07:13:35 pm »
    I secured a box of .357 Gold Dots when I realized I didn't have of the good stuff. OUCH! :facepalm

    draffle64

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    Re: Ammo Shortage
    « Reply #49 on: September 11, 2020, 12:45:32 pm »
    I recently got a 38 special revolver, and one box of ammo... cant find anymore anywhere in Phx, AZ! I'm hoping after the election, everything does start getting back to normal...fingers crossed.  :-\

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